Why Are You Gay? Milo Yiannopoulos Explains. | Tucker Carlson Transcript

Summary

Tucker Carlson interviews Milo Yiannopoulos, the former conservative provocateur who rose to prominence a decade ago as an openly gay, flamboyantly right-wing figure. The conversation explores the nature of homosexuality, Yiannopoulos's decision to pursue celibacy and leave gay life behind, and what he describes as the "faggotisation" of Western culture. Yiannopoulos argues that homosexuality is primarily a trauma response rather than an innate characteristic, and discusses his experience with what is now called "reintegrative therapy."

Key Takeaways

Full Transcript

The "Why Are You Gay?" Phenomenon

Tucker Carlson: Of all the great memes and clips on the internet — Fat Kid Falls Off Bike being of course at the top of the list — really in the last 13 years, almost nothing created on this planet has surpassed in popularity or sheer hilarity an interview that took place on Ugandan television in December of 2012 on a show called Morning Breeze, the morning show of Kampala, Uganda, in which a trans activist, a woman who now identifies as a man, came on and was asked a series of questions by the host. And if you don't know what we're talking about, here is a two-second clip that reveals the essence of the conversation.

[Clip]: Why are you gay?

Tucker Carlson: Let's play that again.

[Clip]: Why are you gay?

Tucker Carlson: It's still the funniest thing that's ever been on the internet. But why is it funny? And why does almost everyone find it funny? Left, right, straight, gay? Well, because it's kind of the key question and it's kind of the question that no one in the United States is allowed to ask. Why are you gay? And of course, it's being asked by an East African with kind of a quaint semi-colonial accent. Conservatives can laugh at it, liberals can laugh at it. Really, this is the only way a white liberal in the United States could ever laugh at a black person — if it's an African expressing non-PC views on homosexuality.

And of course, people in the West laugh because the guy's an idiot. Why are you gay? We all know why you're gay. Actually, we're laughing in part because we're not allowed to ask that question. It's settled, though no one's really explained what about it is settled. If you were to ask the average American, "Why are people gay?" they would probably say, "Well, they're born that way." And then if you follow it up with, "Well, how exactly does that work?" they would have no idea and tell you to shut up. Because again, like so many myths or things that we think we know, we don't really know. We can't really explain it. But we do know for dead certain we're not allowed to talk about it.

If you watch the whole interview — and actually it's worth watching because it's really revealing both about Uganda and about the West — the first thing you notice is how polite everybody is. That tone, "Why are you gay?" continued throughout the entire interview, which lasted over an hour. The morning show host, whether you like him or dislike him, was just unfailingly polite to the guest, who was him or herself also unfailingly polite. And they were just sort of talking past each other. The trans activist couldn't really explain why he or she was gay, or whether gay was different from trans, or what was good about being gay. That was another question the host asked: Why would you want to be gay? And the trans activist just didn't really have an answer.

What was amazing was the sweetness of it. It was not a hate crime. It was not even approaching a hate crime. No conversation like that could take place in the United States. But the host was coming from a position of total certainty that this is just weird and wrong. And that is the consensus in a lot of the world. It's certainly famously the consensus in Uganda.

Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Law and Western Response

The consensus in the United States across both parties and pretty much the whole educated population is: they're horrible because they think homosexuality is wrong. And we know this because about 10 years later, in 2023, Uganda's legislature passed almost unanimously — with only I think one dissenting vote — a law against something called "aggravated homosexuality."

Aggravated homosexuality as of 2023 is a death penalty offence in Uganda. What? Aggravated homosexuality? A death penalty offence? That's mediaeval. But how is it defined in Uganda? Well, if you read it — and you can because it's online — the Ugandan government defines aggravated homosexuality as: gay rape of children, gay rape of the elderly who can't consent (people over 75), gay rape of people who are mentally deficient, and the intentional transmission of deadly diseases to another person. So it's rape and murder, effectively, that are against the law. In fact, capital crimes in Uganda.

It's a little different than advertised, but you would never know it because the entire American political class erupted as one when this law passed in East Africa, thousands of miles away, with a non-relevant trading partner with no real military. In other words, there's no actual reason to care about what Uganda does. But everyone here did care, bipartisanly.

President Joe Biden weighed in in 2023. President Joe Biden condemned the law, calling it, quote, "a tragic violation of universal human rights" and, quote, "the latest development in an alarming trend of human rights abuses and corruption in Uganda." Corruption. So the Ugandans had the temerity to exercise a democratic process using a legislature elected by the people of Uganda to pass a law almost unanimously with one dissenting vote, and that's corruption.

But it wasn't just Biden. Here's Senator Ted Cruz, the self-described conservative from Texas. He tweeted this: "Any law criminalising homosexuality or imposing the death penalty for, quote, 'aggravated homosexuality' is grotesque and an abomination. All civilised nations should join together in condemning this human rights abuse."

So it's uncivilised to penalise gay rape or the intentional transmission of a deadly disease. That's uncivilised. Seems kind of civilised. But at the time, nobody agreed.

The Anglican Communion agreed. Here's Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the rapidly dying Anglican Communion, which would include the Episcopal Church of the United States, the state church of England. He wrote to the Archbishop of Uganda, Christian brother to Christian brother, to express his, quote, "grief and dismay" at the Church of Uganda's support for the anti-homosexuality act.

But it didn't stop with expressions of grief and condemnation and tweets from Ted Cruz. It got right to the hard stuff, to the things that matter: money and foreign aid. The World Bank announced it would halt lending to Uganda in response to the new law. The financial institution noted that the act, quote, "fundamentally contradicts the World Bank Group's values."

What are the World Bank's values? That'd be interesting to know. In a sane country, contradicting the World Bank's, quote, "values" would be a sign of virtue.

Joe Biden in October of 2023, spinning fully into a frenzy at this point, announced that Uganda would be expelled from the group of sub-Saharan African countries that benefit from tax breaks under the US African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA) because of the country's, quote, "gross violations of internationally recognised human rights which violate the AGOA eligibility criteria."

So that was 2023. Bottom line: no more money for you. What happened next? Well, Uganda didn't recover. The next year there was a famine. The United States shut it down. International aid institutions followed suit, and the next year Uganda had a famine that is still ongoing. Fifty per cent of children in Uganda today suffer the symptoms of malnutrition: stunted growth, anaemia. Fifty per cent — half of all Ugandan kids — are starving.

Uganda has never been a rich country. It's had a lot of turmoil. Idi Amin was from there. Uganda has some problems, for sure. But the year after the West collectively withdrew aid from Uganda — billions in aid — they have a famine. And it's all because they banned gay rape of children.

So I guess the point here is our values are pretty clear. We're for this, and we're totally against questioning it. And if you do, we will hurt you.

Joe Biden's Fabricated Story

Maybe that's a question worth asking. But of course, nobody has. And then you wake up one morning and you realise that supporting homosexuality — which is very different from not hating gays; no one should hate gays, and most Americans don't hate gays; in fact, when was the last time we met an American who did hate gays? I've never met one, at least in the past 30 years. You know a million gays and some of them are awesome people, work for you, are your friends. It's not about hating gays. It's about being forced to say this is an affirmative good, and if you disagree with that, then you are affirmatively bad and we're going to stoke a famine in your country to punish you.

That's literally where we are. And some of us should have been paying closer attention as this movement — never formally declared, not the gay rights movement, but the terror against anyone who opposes gay rights, whatever those are — worshipping homosexuality.

I'm going to refer you to one of the great clips of the entire Biden administration. When people look back on the Biden administration, there will be an endless loop of him falling off his bike or identifying his sister as his wife or clips designed to show how confused and senile this poor guy was. And those will in a lot of ways represent the administration. But it's the moments of clarity, those occasional moments of clarity where Biden was really saying something on purpose because he meant it and he wanted to tell you what was important — those are the clips that actually define the four disastrous years of Joe Biden.

And above all, I would argue this clip tells you everything you need to know about the values of the US government, of our popular culture, of the West collectively. Once we understand the values, we can assess: are those the right values? And can a civilisation continue with those values?

Here's Joe Biden describing a trip to downtown Wilmington, Delaware with his dad in 1962:

[Clip — Joe Biden]: I remember getting out of a car when I was trying to be dropped off at the local city hall to get a job to be the only white employee in the east side of town, in the neighbourhood, in the projects as a lifeguard. My dad was dropping me off so he could go around the block. I'd run and get the application. And two well-dressed men kissed one another as I was opening the door. I had seen that before. And I turned around and one walked off to the DuPont building. One walked off to what used to be called the Hercules Corporation. And I looked at my dad and he just looked at me and said, "It's simple, honey. They love each other. It's just basic. There's nothing complicated about it." That's how I was raised. For real.

Tucker Carlson: It's the greatest clip ever. There's just so much. You could really spend all day getting Talmudic on it, just dissecting it and trying to figure out what it means. There's so many parts to this. First of all, Biden's dad called him "honey." That's weird. What dad calls his boy "honey"? Strange. Who knows what it means. Not implying anything, but it's weird.

But the main thing to notice is this is 1962 that this supposedly happened in downtown Wilmington, Delaware. And in 1962, what was the state of America's views about homosexuality? Not about individual gays — this has always been a very tolerant country for all minority groups, by any global standard — but the country's official views on gay sex? Well, it was a felony in 49 states in the summer of 1962. The only state in which it was legal, Illinois, had just legalised it several months before. So having gay sex in the United States when Biden claims this happened was a felony pretty much everywhere. Very few people ever went to jail for it because no one was really interested in enforcing it. But the laws of the United States mirrored those of pretty much every country in the world from then going back maybe to Athens.

People have always been against this. It's always been officially discouraged by every single society. The question is why? That's worth a conversation at some point. Probably not just random bigotry. Every society that we know about ever has had an official policy against gay sex or forms of gay sex. Why? Can you explain to me without getting hysterical? Maybe there's a reason. Who knows?

But that was the state in the United States in the summer of 1962. So the idea that Joe Biden's drunk used car salesman dad turned to him — this brutish Irish guy who Biden has described many times — and says, "Honey, it's just love. It's okay. Two guys making out outside the DuPont building in downtown Wilmington, it's totally normal" — is so transparently absurd. It's such an obvious attempt to graft modern values onto an antique setting that it's so clearly fake. Amazingly, no one laughed. But no one did laugh because no one was allowed to laugh.

But that's absurd. You ask anyone who was alive in the 1960s. Just use common sense. That didn't happen. But notice how Biden frames it. He said he was getting dropped off to get a job as the only white man working in the hood, breaking the colour barrier. It wasn't just a summer job. It was a victory for civil rights. And he was the kind of guy who would do that because his family had a long commitment to civil rights, as evidenced by his father's casual acceptance of homosexuality.

What do we learn from that? We learn that Biden's of course a fabulist. We knew that. But in this specific clip, he's lying for a reason: to transmit to the nation its essential values. And at the very top of that list is: we are for homosexuality. That's number one. It's right up there with civil rights. People get to vote. People get to have gay sex. That's America. That's our culture.

The Dramatic Rise in Non-Heterosexual Identification

It probably shouldn't surprise you that the self-reported incidents of homosexuality and its many varieties in the United States rose dramatically during that period. Here are roughly the numbers. About a little over 10 years ago, 2012, among young people in the United States, about 6% said, "Yeah, I'm not heterosexual." So that would be in the range that we've been told for many years was natural, right? Maybe 10%, a little under 10% of people say they're not heterosexual — gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, whatever, but they're not one man, one woman, monogamy people at all.

That was the number a little over 10 years ago. Last year, the number among young people was over 20%. So in a little more than a decade, you have a three-fold increase, a 300% increase in self-identified non-heterosexual orientation in a little over 10 years.

What are we looking at? Well, we're looking at demographic collapse, among other things. But what is the phenomenon actually? Where does this come from? Or to put it in Ugandan terms: why are you gay?

Pete Buttigieg and the "Born This Way" Narrative

We have been told for the course of my life that you're born gay. It's like handedness or eye colour or height. It's just something that you're born with. God created you that way. You are unique. Your iris, your fingerprints, your sexuality — they're all unique to you. And that's something not to be embarrassed of, unless you're a white man, in which case slink away in shame, be denied admission to college or a job. But for everyone else, your immutable characteristics are something that you celebrate, that you should be proud of. They're not something that you chose. They're not something you can change.

This is the story that all of us have been told. And most of us, me included, sort of kind of believed that. And if that's true, of course, you could never show bias against someone on the basis of his immutable characteristics because that's wrong. It's also unchristian. And that is true. It is unchristian to attack someone on the basis of something with which he was born.

No one has put this in clearer terms than the former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, the former transportation secretary, and as of today the leading candidate for the Democratic nomination in 2028, Mr Pete Buttigieg. Here he is:

[Clip — Pete Buttigieg]: I can tell you that if me being gay was a choice, it was a choice that was made far, far above my pay grade. And that's the thing I wish the Mike Pences of the world would understand: that if you got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me. Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator.

Tucker Carlson: Take it up with God. He made me this way. Notice the self-seriousness. The sort of JFK-esque gaze into the distance. "Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator." Drama queen. Maybe.

But that doesn't really answer the question. Why was Pete Buttigieg dating chicks for the first part of his adult life? By his own admission, he was dating women, like a bunch of women. He was openly heterosexual, including in the US military after the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. So it's totally legal to be gay in the military, but Pete was still heterosexual.

The answer I think most people come to is: well, he was just ashamed of being gay. He couldn't be his true self. He couldn't let it out. Maybe that's true. Though those of us who were living in the United States 10 years ago remember that there was no sanction against being gay. Tons of gay people on television. Those of us who worked in television around gay people — great gay people, actually, really nice, good people all day long — there was nothing weird about being gay 10 years ago, 15 years ago, when Pete Buttigieg was like, "I couldn't come to terms with my own sexuality because his parents are so oppressive." No, they were actually lifestyle liberals. They're big left-wingers, his parents. So probably unlikely that his parents were like, "Don't be gay, son."

It's a completely fair question. You were dating chicks not that long ago, a bunch of them, and all of a sudden you're getting all self-serious about how God made you this way. Explain how that works. It's a totally fair question, especially since Pete Buttigieg's whole identity is wrapped up in being gay. His whole identity. It's not like Pete Buttigieg is running for president because he's had such an incredible career as a public servant. He fixed South Bend, Indiana. He's just a really good mayor. Nobody thinks that. Ask anybody in South Bend. He was a really good driver in the US military, an awesome transportation secretary. He was a joke as transportation secretary. Did air travel get better under Pete Buttigieg? Did the roads get fixed? Did anything improve in American transportation during Pete Buttigieg's tenure as transportation secretary? No. He wasn't just lame. He was awful.

In case you don't remember, here's his signature achievement as Secretary of Transportation: identifying racist roads.

[Clip]: The Interstate system was built to keep certain groups in and certain groups out. So it was built on a racist system.

Interviewer: Correct.

Pete Buttigieg: Often this wasn't just an act of neglect. Often this was a conscious choice. There was racism physically built into some of our highways.

Tucker Carlson: There was racism built into the highways. There was rebar and a concrete substrate and of course gravel and then asphalt poured over the top. But mixed in there, probably in a drum at some point, was actual white racism. It was mixed into the roads, and that's why Buttigieg had to tear them up. That's a real clip. That's not AI.

Being gay isn't just this thing about Pete Buttigieg. It's the whole point of Pete Buttigieg. It is the reason that he has the plurality of support from Democratic primary voters who are not black. His support among black voters — they're more in the "why are you gay?" camp. They're not impressed at all. His current support among African-American Democratic primary voters is around zero. No black people. They're not going for it. "Why are you gay?" You can almost hear them saying that.

But among white liberals, Pete Buttigieg's gayness, the fact he's married to a dude called Chasten and has somehow acquired babies — how do you get babies? Just buy them somewhere, whatever — he has these babies and he is the model of a modern gay man. That's the whole point. He is a civil rights hero because of who he sleeps with. Pretty amazing.

The Problem with Making Sexuality Central to Politics

Two obvious points to make about that. First, do you remember when they used to tell us, "We don't care what happens in your bedroom"? Do you remember that? "We want to keep politics out of the bedroom. We want to keep politicians out of your bedroom." This was a way to justify the Holocaust of abortion, of course. But the line sounded kind of appealing. Yeah, politicians probably should stay out of my bedroom. That seems fair.

Now your bedroom is the whole point. You've got politicians running on what they do in their bedroom. And on the Democratic side, succeeding.

That leads very obviously to the second point, which is: there are a lot of rewards in store for someone in the Democratic Party, an ambitious politician, someone who really only cares about the goal — which in Pete Buttigieg's case has always been becoming president. Is it bad to come out of the closet and announce that you're gay? No. That's like the only way you're going to get to the White House. That's your ticket. Being, quote, "gay."

Given that that's obviously true, and given that this guy dated girls as an adult, it's totally fair to ask the question: why are you gay? What is this? I'm starting to think that maybe it's not genetic or entirely genetic. And if it is, show me the gene. We've decoded the human genome. We can tell you where the gene for eye colour comes from. Where's the gay gene? Maybe there is a gay gene. Lots of things we haven't decoded yet. Maybe it's there. Are you looking for it? Are you trying to answer this question? No. The whole game is to make you be quiet, ashamed, because it has something to do with sex. "What are you, a creep focused on sex? You're obsessed with gay sex."

I'm not, actually. But you're way up in my face about it. So I think it's fair to ask you a couple of very simple, straightforward, foundational questions like: What is this? Where does it come from? Why is it good? Why is being gay better than not being gay? And if it's not 100% genetic — clearly it isn't; if you've had a 300% increase in 10 years, probably not genetic, unless our genetics are changing at lightning speed, unless evolution is a much faster process than Darwin ever reckoned — if it's not entirely genetic, then what are the other factors?

Apart from moral concerns or the concerns of human happiness, does this actually make you happy? What does it mean to live as a gay person in the United States? What exactly does that look like? What's your life like? How many people do you have sex with? How are those unfair questions? Since you're the one throwing it in my face and telling me I'm not allowed to be against it, maybe I'm allowed to ask the questions I don't really want to ask, don't really want to know the answers to. But since you've made it the north star of our moral system in the United States, since you're willing to starve an African country because they disagree with it, maybe it's time for me to ask those questions.

If you just backed off a little bit, if we could just return to the status quo of, say, 1985, where yeah, there are gay people, they're great, they're off, whatever, they're here, they're there, but they're not pushing gay sex on my kids in school — that's clearly not a good idea. Tell me why it is a good idea. And of course it's a crime to intentionally infect someone with an infectious disease. And of course it's the hallmark of civilisation to make rape illegal, gay or straight. But since you blew up all those previous assumptions and now made them illegal — Uganda made this crime punishable by death, you made their law punishable by famine — who's more serious about it? You are.

Since you did all of that, how about we just slowly, in a non-hysterical, obviously non-hateful way, ask: what are we looking at? Why are you gay? Why is that a good thing? What is it exactly?

Introducing Milo Yiannopoulos

There are a lot of people we could ask about this, but we thought the most articulate person we know to answer these questions is Milo Yiannopoulos, who was very famous 10 years ago as a — what was he called? — conservative provocateur, running around the country making the case against liberals as an open, in fact flamboyant gay man. And that was part of the shtick, right? "We've got a gay guy too. What are you going to say now?" You know, "We've got black conservatives too. You can't call us racist. We've got a gay conservative. You can't call us homophobes."

So Milo was unleashed on the world. And then in literally one day he was cancelled, really destroyed as a person, in a sort of non-scandal that took him right off the stage. You never heard from him again.

But during the period when he was flitting around America on his Dangerous Faggot Tour spreading libertarian economics or something to the kids, it became obvious that this guy was actually really smart. Even for those of us who were never that interested in the Dangerous Faggot part of it, if you listened, you thought, "Wow, this guy's not dumb at all. He's actually very thoughtful, high IQ, thinks about things."

Over the last couple of years, during text conversations, I became aware that Milo had decided that he didn't want to be gay anymore. And I thought, "That's kind of interesting. I didn't know you could decide you didn't want to be gay." And then you read about it and it turns out there's a whole industry, movement, and laws designed to prevent you from deciding not to be gay. Parts of the United States have banned conversion therapies. You're not allowed to talk to a psychiatrist about not having same-sex attraction. What is that? It's like once you're in, you can't get out. It's like mandatory gayness.

So it seemed worth a sit-down conversation with Milo Yiannopoulos and just ask him sincere questions like: What is this? Why did you decide to change? What's it like changing? What does it mean to be gay in the United States specifically? And so that conversation follows, and we hope you enjoy it.

The Interview Begins

Tucker Carlson: You're really nice to do this. I'm glad you came. I want to begin—

Milo Yiannopoulos: I'm the only person that would have you on. I'm joking.

Tucker Carlson: I'm actually really interested. I'm interested in this topic. I've never been interested in it. But I want to begin by asking you — it's sort of personal, but it's occurred to me, particularly when I have interviewed Republican politicians, particularly neocons over the years—

Milo Yiannopoulos: Sexuality comes to my mind.

Tucker Carlson: I've always wanted to say, in a Ugandan accent, "Why are you gay?"

Milo Yiannopoulos: "Why are you gay?"

Tucker Carlson: So let me ask: are you gay? Were you gay? Like, what is gay?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Nobody's gay. Nobody's gay. After that clip, which is the best thing on the internet, he changes the question, the interrogative to a declarative. He says, "Why are you gay?" And she starts talking. He says, "You are gay." It becomes a statement. And this is where he loses me, because nobody is gay. We've been encouraged to think of this — it's an icky subject. Straight men don't want to think about it.

Tucker Carlson: It's okay. I mean, it's reached the point where—

Milo Yiannopoulos: You invited me.

Tucker Carlson: Well, I invited you because I have not wanted to be engaged with the topic at all. I don't have super strong personal feelings about it, but all of a sudden it has become like a defining fact of the West that we have a huge gay population. And you're not allowed to talk about it.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Sodomy with strings attached. So what metaphor am I reaching for? Strings attached. Yes, you can have our aid, but only if you have a gay pride festival.

Tucker Carlson: Right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: What is that?

Tucker Carlson: Exactly. What is that?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yes. And with the collapse in people identifying as trans, you're beginning to now see what some of us have always known about homosexuality, which is that this is a product. I mean, there are some people obviously who were probably always going to be gay — Tammy Bruce. She might be the only real lesbian. I believe when Tammy Bruce tells me that she was only ever into women. I believe her. I like her, by the way. I think she's great. But she's like the only real lesbian. With gay men, which is completely different, we see the numbers go up, the numbers go down. This doesn't make sense if we believe the old lie, "born this way." If we believe what was in fact invented in the 1980s as a public relations strategy.

The Origin of "Born This Way"

Back in the 1980s, with AIDS and all the rest of it, gays were wanting to be out and proud and to wear their sins on their sleeves. Somebody came up with this idea, which caught on and worked. It was twofold. One is: what if we say that being gay is like being black or being a woman?

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Then they're a bigot. We're not weird. So it takes the religious, the Moral Majority's "sinful lifestyle choice" argument and it screws them because now they're saying, "You're wrong to be a girl" or "You're wrong to be black."

Tucker Carlson: Exactly.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It was invented wholesale by the activists in the 1980s. And the second part of it was — and this is in a book called After the Ball, which really was very influential because it was the book that told gay activists how to get this revolting sin that most people don't even want to think about up front and centre, family-friendly, and ultimately to the state where we let them adopt children — "Don't talk about bodily functions. Don't talk about effluvia. Just talk about love. Talk about it in terms of love. Love is love. Love wins." We see this to the present day. Never talk about the stains on the sheets, the promiscuity, the drugs, the glory holes in Berlin nightclubs. Never talk about any of those things because those things will repel women. And you need mums with gay sons to affirm their homosexuality.

So what is that homosexuality? Long answer for a short question. In almost every case, and certainly in every male case, it is a trauma response. It is not a sexuality. It is not part of what you are or who you are or a component of your personality. It is a set of behaviours that emerges in people with a number of very easily identifiable common aetiologies.

One of them is: among black and Jewish Americans, they report statistically significantly higher rates of homosexuality. Why could that be? Overbearing mums and absent dads. Or in the Jewish case, nebbish fathers and larger-than-life mums. My Jewish friends, I always call their marriages lion-taming. You have a sort of nebbish, scholarly, bookish dad and a larger-than-life mum who one day decides she's going to be a rabbi. Or in the black community, of course, it's the fatherlessness. Why, if you're born this way, if you don't have some other better explanation — could it be the case that there are more gays among black and Jewish populations? Well, something's going on here.

Because this is in fact a symptom. This is a product of something. It's the result of something.

Tucker Carlson: This was Freud's position, which was kind of conventional wisdom for the better part of a hundred years: that this was a response to the environment and particularly to the relationship with the mother that a young boy has and a relationship with his father. But this was — people just assumed that was true when I was a kid. They were not gay-haters or homophobes. That was just the state of knowledge on the subject.

Milo Yiannopoulos: One of the only things Freud got right was that. And it's funny that that's actually in line with the Catholic Church teaching and now has become — the terminology in the medical industry has begun to change as well. Now gay people are saturated everywhere. You get a whole country full of people who are very similar but will think they're really individual.

Tucker Carlson: That's deep. Yes. I do know what that looks like.

Milo Yiannopoulos: America is a very faggotised country in all kinds of ways. That's the technical term. If you want to know the truth about homosexuality, you've got to go to black YouTube and listen to the girls.

Tucker Carlson: How do you get to black YouTube, by the way?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, it's a tumbling kind of thing. You find one good video by somebody — Steph Carrick, she's great — and then you tumble through the algorithm. I'll send you some links. I'll post some links on my Twitter.

Tucker Carlson: I don't know if I dare, but you're saying that's the more honest YouTube.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's the only honest YouTube. It's the only honest anything. Because you go past the churches and you'll see the white homo demons stealing your man. And it's not the pastor who comes up with this stuff. It's his wife. She's got this — she was trying to set her girlfriend up with somebody and that was all great, but he went off with a dude, which is, you know, equidistant for them from going off with a white girl. But no, the only honest place where people will just be like, "Did they faggotise you?" And then they'll go through it all.

For me, the ne plus ultra of this genre would be Black Chyna's mum. Do you know who that is? Of course you don't. You remind me of a line from Blackadder sometimes. You have this sort of lovely oneness kind of thing that you do. You're like, "Well, no, I just don't know anything." But do you remember that line from Blackadder? "Slumbering ultra-centenarians who claim never to have heard of the Beatles." He's talking about High Court judges.

Tucker Carlson: No, but I get it.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I've never actually heard of Blackadder.

Tucker Carlson: I'm actually not. I don't even know what you're talking about. But that's okay. It's not about me.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Blackadder is how Stephen Fry and Rowan Atkinson got famous. You're not black.

Tucker Carlson: I don't know. There are huge gaps. I'm not knowledgeable.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Baby Jesus and the orphans.

Tucker Carlson: Well, you say this, yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Tokyo Tony is her name. You can Google Tokyo Tony. That's your entry to black everything. She's great. YouTube now — the only interesting bits of YouTube that still get views are these black shows. Massively overproduced shows with these incredibly elaborate sets and they've got like 43 people live watching, but the archives and the clips go crazy.

Tucker Carlson: Man, I've got a series of delights ahead of me.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, you don't have many black people on the show, so you've got me instead. I'll be your African-American contingent. I'll introduce you to these things.

The Reality Behind Homosexuality

Milo Yiannopoulos: You're describing a world into which a lot of conventional propaganda has not yet filtered, or they're resistant to it or something.

It's interesting because "Why are you gay?" — the origin of "born this way" I've just described. The reality is that these communities who experience this problem a lot — the black community particularly, because of fatherlessness, a lot of gay black kids, there's just a lot of them — have this very blunt and truthful — I mean, looking at me now, it's impossible to imagine that I used to be a homosexual. But it hadn't entered my mind.

Tucker Carlson: No, but I knew you during your flaming stage, so I had heard.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Yeah. But there are so many flaming young black men in America today, especially. And this is a problem this community is dealing with. And they don't go along with a lot of the woke PC language stuff. Black America is commendably impervious to a lot of that. They're creditably sceptical of vaccines. They won't go along with a lot of this stuff. Like Proposition 8 in California, gay marriage — why? It's black women who are holding the floor. I love Candace Owens so much. The ungovernability of black women is the only thing that might possibly save America, as embodied in our friend Candace, who is just ungovernable in the best possible way. She's not going along with it.

Candace is a very beautiful, polished, intelligent microcosm of a trend that you see everywhere in black America now, which is: "Ain't doing that. Ain't doing that. Definitely ain't doing that."

Tucker Carlson: Wow.

Milo Yiannopoulos: They're very resistant to this stuff. They intuit what white people, I think, have forgotten because we're just all so bombed, so weak and demoralised and overburdened with this nonsense. The truth is that homosexuality — and in particular conversion therapy — is the first thing upon which the liberals tried what they later did to Trump, which is just this wall of fake news, misinformation, propaganda. It's the first time. There are other examples around wars and things like that, but when it comes to social issues, it's the first time the press just says, "Oh, hell no," and they move.

Sometimes I lose — the characters get confused. I'm going to put Rwanda away. The first time that the media decides this is a social issue we care about enough — because we're going to lose our gay friends — that we're going to just lie and demonise and give the full fake news treatment that we later saw in its most sophisticated form leveraged, praise God, unsuccessfully against Trump again and again. They start off with this "You were born this way, honey. You're beautiful, whatever you are." No, you're like that because you got raped by a priest. Or you're like that because your mum was overbearing and your dad wasn't around. Or you're like that because you failed to form platonic, stable attachments to other men as a child for some reason. Maybe you didn't have a good male role model.

But there is a relatively small number of identifiable and repeated aetiologies that mark somebody out as being vulnerable to this. And you look into the histories of gay people — they'll all deny it, saying, "No, it's just me." But it's not. And they know. They know because I knew, and they know, and I talked to them privately when there's no cameras there. I could squeeze it out of them eventually. Yes, there's something about their sexual activity they know isn't right. And it's not just in the technical sense that the sex is sterile and therefore can never be part of the holy sacrament of marriage because it can't be co-procreation with God.

Tucker Carlson: Right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Co-procreation with God meaning: you make a physical body with your wife, but then God puts a soul in.

Tucker Carlson: Right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And that's why it's the most precious sacrament, because you do the others — you do your confirmation, the rest of it — but it's leading up to you getting to make something with God. Which is the real reason that Lucifer is so mad, because the angels can't do that. The angels don't get to participate in creation with our Lord, but every single human being does. And you feel that too when you have kids. Even if you don't know what it is, you feel there's something supernatural going on here.

This is going to sound completely pathetic, but I have some kind of pathetic simulacrum of it. Now I've become a cat dad. Just in terms of caring for something helpless. It's bringing out of me something that I know is going to lead to fatherhood because I'm responsible for this being that loves and laughs — and they do — and requires regular not just maintenance but affection and to be tended to and love.

I love dogs. I used to be more of a dog guy, but I live in a house on the National Register of Historic Places, so I can't have dogs. So I just got a cat one day because somebody found it in an engine. I was so alone. I said, "Sure, give me a kitten." And at that point, I wasn't sure I was going to drown it, wear it, or nurture it. But I was just like, "Oh, okay."

Being responsible for shaping the personality — which anybody who has animals, who loves animals, knows that is 100% real — responsible for shaping the personality, nurturing that being into either being a parent itself or just into being a companion or being the best that it can be. It's bringing something out in me that wasn't present when I was having a lot of what most people would regard as — well, what homosexuals would regard as — very desirable kind of sex with a particular kind of person.

You get to the base of it and you get to the heart of it. If you're sort of one-on-one with a gay, they won't just talk about the emptiness of their life or the fact that the sex is sterile. They will know that there's something not quite right.

Tucker Carlson: And that its origin is: there was something that was not quite right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Have you ever been addicted to anything?

Tucker Carlson: Oh, yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Okay.

Tucker Carlson: Big time.

Milo Yiannopoulos: So you know there's that moment when your mind is flooded and it's all you can think about.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And it's all that you can — you've got to get it out. Because if you don't do a line or have a smoke or do something, if you don't get it out, it's just going to be all you can think about for the rest of the day. It's just driving you crazy because it floods your mind.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I've been addicted to one or two little things. And I realised my sex works the same way.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. I believe that.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I realised that when I was on a plane. I'm sitting down, hey, team 1A. I'm sitting on the plane. I'm like, "Yeah, I'll have a gin and tonic." And then a football player would sit next to me — well, not a basketball player, little gay nerds — but like a football player would sit next to me. Like, it would take hold of me. There were times I had to go to the bathroom and, you know...

Tucker Carlson: Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Because I had to get rid of it because it was taking hold of my mind.

Tucker Carlson: It sounds like a demon.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. That's what it is. I joke — I say Gorgaroth, the semen demon. He comes out — he doesn't visit me very often anymore. But it's like...

Tucker Carlson: It's totally real. I mean, that stuff is all — it's all real.

Milo Yiannopoulos: But I realised that. So I don't do cocaine anymore, but, you know, it'll shock people to learn I used to be a bit of a cokehead when I was — that rush of dopamine.

Tucker Carlson: The rituals associated with it as well.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And I was like, "Oh my God, that's how I feel about sex." And that can't be right.

Tucker Carlson: It can't be right. No. It's literally a — I'm not talking about gay sex, but any — that is literally a perversion.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yes.

Tucker Carlson: And it is a demon. And it's also other things too because these things go hand in hand.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah.

Milo's Personal Story

Tucker Carlson: May I ask, in your own life — if it's not too personal — how did you wind up...?

Milo Yiannopoulos: We're there now, aren't we?

Tucker Carlson: Okay. I think we are.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I just told you I wanked on UA1722. Cracked one out in the bathroom. People are never going to sit next to me on planes again. I think we're good.

Tucker Carlson: Anyone who's ever been — well, I drink alcohol in the morning. I mean, you know, anyone who's ever been possessed by an obsession knows that it can totally destroy your behaviour. But we spend so much time talking in our society about gay, and it's all good. Of course, gay is good and gay rights are good. In fact, they're the marker of human rights. They're the only human right, really.

Milo Yiannopoulos: This is the only human right people still care about. Your right to be sodomised. Your right to wake up in the morning and hear that voice in your mind. And it's not a sultry voice. It's not a sexy voice. It's: "Go and get it." It's Gorgaroth.

I'm sorry, I'm interrupting you. But it is. That's dark. I've thankfully never — it's one of the few problems I don't have. But I get it. That's why Grindr apps are so dangerous. It's just like, within 20 minutes, they can be in the living room.

Tucker Carlson: I want to ask you about that, but first let me ask about your own life. Because you never get to ask — everyone's telling you how proud they are to be gay. That's great and all that. But it's a sin, by the way. Pride is a sin. But you never get to ask: how did this — how did you start being gay? Like, specifically describe—

Milo Yiannopoulos: The PG way, right?

Tucker Carlson: If you insist.

Milo Yiannopoulos: No, we've done enough. The way I remember it is I just did it to piss off my mother, but that's not true. I think that's self-mythologisation. I did take a lot of drug dealers home when I was in high school.

Tucker Carlson: Were you close to your mum?

Milo Yiannopoulos: When I was in high school, she married — let me do that first. So my dad was in organised crime. Funny, charismatic, brilliant. There are things about Alex Jones that remind me of him a little bit, just in manner. Like a bit of a bruiser but with a heart. Like a bad guy with a heart of gold.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I've known a few.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I cleave to that kind of personality. It reminds me a little bit of the good bits of my dad. But there was another section, which Alex does not have, which was that my dad was a bad guy and I saw him do really bad things to people. I would come down — I've told this story before — but I would come down, sometimes the kitchen door would be closed and I would hear, "Nicky, Nicky, I'm giving up a life of crime. I'm turning over a new leaf. I'm not going to do anything that's going to get me any more than 18 months."

Tucker Carlson: It's funny, but it's all about goals, Milo.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. But he was a bad guy and I saw him do things that really frightened me. He was running the clubs and the security and laundering millions. Between those two — security guards are on £120 an hour. Yeah. Officer. Oh yeah. "Aren't you — tell them what you're on?" "£110, £120." Yeah.

So he used to let me sit in the booth and do the stamps and I would watch people go in and I'd watch the behaviours of low socio-economic white working-class people in their 20s just drinking and effing. And then I saw some of the things my dad did. And they would start with that joke. They'd start with that very charming joke. They'd start with that alluring joke. And my dad had a master's in fine art. He was a great sculptor and painter. But that was the charming bit of him. The dark bit was: he would say to people, "Just because you're in a wheelchair doesn't give you the right to be a [bleep]." And he would grab the wheelchair, spin it around, and walk people up to parking lot edges and stuff like that. And I'm sitting in the car like... Or he'd go collecting, which means protection rackets. And he would — I would overhear, "Julian, could you take your glasses off, please? I don't want to get glass in my finger when I poke your [bleep] eye out."

It's very charming, very funny, like very Tony Soprano kind of ilk. But I saw some of it and I think maybe somewhere in my head I was like, "Yeah, if that's being a man, I think I'm out." Because I was a child. I was frightened.

And then my mother left him and married a new guy. And he was nice enough, but he would go through all my stuff. If I had papers, if I was reading something for school, he would, when I was out, go through every page and just leave it like this, just so that I knew that he'd been in there. That kind of invasive, horrifying — for a very sensitive, artistic child like me, I had a much-larger-than-life grandmother who was egging this stuff on.

And by this time I had had some interactions, sexual interactions, with a Roman Catholic priest who's dead now. Has been dead for a long time. But that had obviously — that fed into it as well.

Tucker Carlson: Wait, wait. Stop.

Milo Yiannopoulos: That obviously fed into it.

Tucker Carlson: Right. Well, if you're being molested...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Oh, also the molestation. But really, for me, this is where it's important to do the other stuff first before you get to, "Oh, and I was raped by a priest." But this sort of psychological torture, as I perceived it, I had no private space anywhere and I knew that all the men in my life were just not things I wanted to become.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And then I cast my mind back to a lovely old rich man in a frock, Father Michael. And he had not been like that with me.

One of the things that got me into trouble 10 years ago was when I said I felt like the aggressor in that situation. I didn't know what bad stuff it had done to me. And at the time I didn't. I made a couple of jokes that got GOP Inc hot and bothered because they're all [bleep], and they weren't happy about some of the truths that we're talking about today kind of tumbling out.

So these things combined: having what I perceived to be at that time — I perceived as a child to be — consensual sexual experiences with an older man who was kindly. He was a kindly sweetheart. I think of him now as a harmless old queen. Of course, what he was doing was not harmless.

Tucker Carlson: Well, you have a right to any opinion you want about the experiences that happened to you.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Apparently not.

Tucker Carlson: Well, I've been retired for some time as a result.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, I continue to believe that people are allowed to formulate their own opinions about their own lives.

Tucker Carlson: I think you should be able to talk about your rape however you like and not necessarily have to go on live international television and apologise for it like I did. But I'm not bitter.

Fortunately, I carved out a new kind of career and a new life now that I much prefer — more satisfying, lucrative, blah blah blah. We'll do it later. So I haven't gone crazy like so many of my friends. And it's funny watching them because I see some of the — in the way that their personalities have become kind of empty and sharded and become filled with wickedness — I see some of the things that I have been working over the last 10 years to get away from. They've become faggotised.

Closeted Homosexuality on the Right

Tucker Carlson: Well, there does seem to be a connection. The incidence of closeted homosexuality on the right is overwhelmingly. It's like way above what you would imagine is statistically probable. There are like three straight guys on the right. It's like Alex, you, and I have a floating wild card just in case I forgot anybody. Who else? Who else is there? Maybe the Tates, but who else is there?

Milo Yiannopoulos: What is that?

Tucker Carlson: I don't understand it.

Milo Yiannopoulos: There's such a long relationship, a long happy marriage, between conservative politics and homosexuality. And it's easy to joke about it and say, "Oh, it's all the bells and smells and frocks of the religious dimension to it all, or it's the pomp and circumstance of power."

Tucker Carlson: The New Testament is really tough on homosexuality. So I don't see it as a — that's certainly not a Christian thing.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's not a Christian thing. But of course, it's easy to understand with the sort of obscene, obese heresies of the type that obtain in this country. I mean, in a country where prosperity gospel can thrive...

Tucker Carlson: You're right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Who would be surprised?

Tucker Carlson: Right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's not an authentic faith as we would know it. I sometimes tease you about your denomination, but Episcopalian church is as close to us as it's possible to get and was designed to be a mirror to High Anglicanism, which was indistinguishable from Catholicism. At its best, it's a very similar creed and with very similar style and similar beliefs. But as soon as you wander away from that in America, it's just mental.

Tucker Carlson: But what is — and I'm not attacking anybody and I never want to out people because it's not my business, right? I've never done it.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I live to out people.

Tucker Carlson: On which subject: Cory Booker.

Milo Yiannopoulos: But what is that? Why is it so common on the right? Well, of course on the left too, but on the right with closeted gays. I don't get that.

It's an interesting question. I've never heard a really good answer to. I'll be honest with you. I suppose I should have a good answer to that, but I don't. And I think if it's about anything, it's about the exercise of power over others.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Because I feel that. I have no idea exactly why that's true, but I feel that that's true.

Tucker Carlson: What's the worst thing about magic? It's not that you can turn a person into a frog or you can make yourself look more beautiful. What's the worst thing about magic is that it robs others of agency, that you can make them do things they don't want to do. The worst and most sinister bit of magic is that you can trick someone or compel someone against their will to fall in love with you or to throw themselves off a cliff.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Kind of slavery.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: The most frightening thing about magic is its ability to compel the wills of others. And that's what I think homosexuals are seeking when they — because they feel so powerless in their own lives and have this understanding that they are broken people without agency over their own sex lives, over their bodies, over that down there. Like, I don't even have control over me, but I'm damn well going to have control over you. That's a lot of it.

Tucker Carlson: I know you're telling the truth here. I don't fully understand what you're saying, but it comports with a lot of what I've seen.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I feel as though if you are a person who intuits that you have a lack of control, of power, of agency over your own drives, your own desires, your own urges, and even your biological, anatomical, physical responses — like, I can't stop getting aroused by men; what is that? — you're going to want to exercise power elsewhere. Over others.

Tucker Carlson: That's so interesting.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And being sucked into the nexus of intersectionality, you might be tempted by explicit magic as well as the implicit magic of whatever. So, you know, dovetail that with right-wing authoritarianism. And I have to say, I'm sorry to say it, I must say it: some dimensions, in some respects, I can see that that might be something that attracts homosexuals to the Catholic Church, for instance. Just the illusion of being a bishop.

Tucker Carlson: Or National Review magazine, you know, which is...

Milo Yiannopoulos: You don't just save me. It's all right. I'm happy to talk about the Catholic element. I mean, the bishops are all [bleep]. They're all whoopsies. They're all gays.

Tucker Carlson: I like that one. It contains within it a kernel of the sort of slapstick that I think we have to — one of the ways I got myself off it was imagining myself in that situation as ridiculous. Like, I can't even perceive that I would do something so ridiculous. Laughing at it became — because laughter is the death of arousal, right?

Tucker Carlson: Totally agree.

Milo Yiannopoulos: So I read this. Anyone who's ever been laughed at naked can tell you that.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, never have, but...

Milo Yiannopoulos: I haven't either. But, you know, it's a favourite, famous, particularly British injunction: laughter is the death of arousal. And I just thought, "Okay, well, how about if I start thinking about it as ridiculous?" Because it is ridiculous. I mean, like, you and the football team — it is ridiculous. And so that's one of the ways I...

But no, this — seeing themselves as powerless even to control their own bodies and knowing on some level, I think homosexuals seek out those places.

Tucker Carlson: This is why you might want to bomb Iran and Venezuela.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. What's gayer? What's gayer? I'm not saying he was a practising homosexual, but is there anything gayer than John McCain's bloodlust seen through this prism? I mean, he's even got the fat friend. It's his daughter. He even bred the fat best friend. Is there a more ostentatious fag hag in America than Meghan McCain? She hates herself. She's fat. She's crazy. She's every gay man's dream. Can't dress.

Tucker Carlson: Why is that every gay man's dream?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Because they want to visit upon their female friends the cruelty they wish that they could perform on their mothers.

Tucker Carlson: Whoa.

Milo Yiannopoulos: They want to make her feel fat and ugly and ridiculous because that's what their mother did to them, and there was no dad around to protect them, and their mother was just this overbearing, terrible, the Jungian devouring mother.

Reintegrative Therapy and Changing Sexual Orientation

Tucker Carlson: All of this has been banned in the United States. So I don't even think people are familiar with these concepts anymore.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Right. So I'll try to keep it simple. Imagine like a female Lutheran pastor or a female Jewish rabbi. This is horrible, overbearing monstrousness that on some level the homosexual knows is what's made him like this. Because he knows dad wasn't around, so mum did it. This is why, by the way, this is why trans were so popular: because it got parents off the hook. If you've got a gay kid, you know you did something. But if your kid has a disease and was born into the wrong body, well, that's not your fault, is it? And you got all this sympathy. "Oh, you got a trans kid. How tough are you?" No, you got a [bleep] because you raised a [bleep] because you're a terrible parent.

They want to avoid that. So instead: "No, I'm going to chop its ding-dong off and say it's got a disease." That's why it was so popular with single mums. Because it got them off the hook. It means they didn't turn their son gay when they know they did. They know they did. They know they did. And the sons know they did. And the sons grow up being cruel to women because of what mum did to them.

Tucker Carlson: So they're hostile toward their mums, even though many gay men have this close relationship...

Milo Yiannopoulos: But it's a toxicity. It's a codependent relationship that they know is — sometimes they can't visit this cruelty on their mum because they have this close relationship with their mum. But they do it on other women. It's redirected, transferred onto other women. Because they love their mummy. "Why would I do that on my mum?" But on some level they know that she did that. She did that.

So they force women into ever more uncomfortable and ever uglier outfits and throw them down runways in 10-inch heels. Or they...

Tucker Carlson: What? So you think the fashion industry is acting this out?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Of course it is. I mean, what other explanation could there be for the intolerable ugliness of the catwalk?

Tucker Carlson: You are blowing my mind on so many levels. I can't even...

Milo Yiannopoulos: We used to have — when society was working properly — you would go... Have you ever seen Mrs Harris Goes to Paris?

Tucker Carlson: No.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's a lovely movie about a charwoman, a housekeeper — to Americans — see? A charwoman. And you've never seen Mrs Harris Goes to Paris. Who dreams of one day owning a couture Dior dress like the person that she works for. And she saves up and she saves up and there's calamities with her money, and eventually she manages to go to Paris and she manages to get the dress. And when society was properly ordered, there were these aspirational beauty standards and these aspirational lifestyle goals, included gorgeous tailoring and beautiful silhouettes for women that accentuated their gorgeous characters. Not like that now, is it? Not like that.

Tucker Carlson: No. And it's funny. I don't know much — I don't know really anything about fashion. But I love female beauty, of course. But you don't see any of it on the catwalk.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Exactly. In fact, you see the opposite.

Tucker Carlson: You see the opposite.

Milo Yiannopoulos: You see manufactured ugliness. Gay men turning women into the demons they see themselves as. Look at the most celebrated woman on the stage at the moment: the Gorgon opposite Ariana Grande. This Nosferatu-like black Nosferatu who seems to be sucking the life force out of poor Ariana, who's — I think — going to die within the next few weeks if you've seen that singer's physique lately. She's sort of... But this appalling apparition, Cynthia or something — I think — of course she's called Cynthia. With these claws. And you look at the silhouette and you're like, "That's literally Nosferatu. It's literally not." And I know a gay man did that. And of course, a gay man then put her on stage in Jesus Christ Superstar as our Lord. Did you know that?

Tucker Carlson: No.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Have you seen the person I'm talking about?

Tucker Carlson: No.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Okay. Well, you'll Google it later. But it's this spindly — it's just straight-up goblin-looking black woman. And I'm not trying to have a Roseanne moment. Although she was right. But this woman is like, you know, ugly by any racial standard. Just monstrous-looking. Just what our mothers might have called deeply unfortunate. Practically circus-level. And of course, she's the heroine of the billion-dollar franchise now, Wicked. And she's on stage as Jesus.

So it's an act of hostility, is what you're saying.

Exactly. Exactly. And so these gay men who feel the will of Gorgaroth inside them — like, "Do it, do it" — and who go turn these women into the demons they see inside themselves. The demons they see acting on.

Faggotisation of Western Culture

Tucker Carlson: This is a lot deeper than I expected when I texted you to have this conversation.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's more than you would imagine from a guy wearing this T-shirt.

Tucker Carlson: No, it's not, actually. And by the way, can I say one thing that's bothered me for years? When I was a child, there was a lot of creativity coming from gay men in the United States.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I know.

Tucker Carlson: And where are they all gone now?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Dave Rubin is responsible. And not him personally, but I mean...

Tucker Carlson: But do you know what I'm talking about?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Of course. And why? Because a lot of free thinking — I was related to one of them, and I spent a lot of time in my house, lived under my house when I was a kid. And he died of AIDS, you know, and had a lot of problems. But in some — I will say — creative, freethinking, like truly freethinking. Vidal was like the archetype.

Tucker Carlson: This is Burkean.

Milo Yiannopoulos: There are no Gore Vidals in gay world that I'm aware of. They're all like conformist and supporting the man. The only ones these days: ex-gay.

Tucker Carlson: But do you know what I'm talking about?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yes. And it's Burkean. It's because creativity arises out of order. There has to be limits. And if homosexuality is not proscribed as wretched and kept at the fringes where it belongs, creativity dies. And what do you get? Because you don't have those people playing with the limits. You don't have the taboo breakers. You don't have the artists, the creatives living at the limits of society. They're brought in instead.

Tucker Carlson: And I have to say, I think the gay community, such as it is, is one of the least creative, most conformist elements of our society. I never thought I would say that.

Milo Yiannopoulos: They become the enforcers.

Tucker Carlson: They're the enforcers.

Milo Yiannopoulos: The Praetorian Guard for Apple and Microsoft.

Tucker Carlson: Like, what the hell?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Just like the white women of folklore who are responsible for all evil, but they become like turbocharged Karens. And it's the white women — white single mums, typically, but single mums generally, I think — who bring in drag queen story hour. Because there's no gay people banging down the door to... There's no gay people like, "Excuse me, can I come read to your kids? Do you mind?" They're not. But there are demons out there who will come do it if you invite them. Because what do you have to do with demons? Open a portal. Open a doorway. So these women open the doorway and in comes The Three Little Pigs.

But the gays now have taken this role. They've taken the mantle over from — you know what we used to say, didn't we? We used to say white single mums are the root of all evil, as kind of half joking, because of all the crazy stuff they support. But now it's homosexuals.

I have to be honest with you. I bear some responsibility for this because it was me 10 years ago mainstreaming homosexuality in the Republican Party. It's the great regret of my life, more so than anything I've done to my own soul, which is a lot. It's the great regret of my life because it has given rise to horrors I never imagined.

I mean, say what you like: all revolutionaries come to hate their children. Well, the gay horrors that I've given birth to — Lady MAGA, Nick Fuentes — I mean, they keep me up at night.

Tucker Carlson: Why did you mention Dave Rubin? What's his role?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, because he is at the vanguard, along with a number of other gays in public life, of introducing children into the equation. Because when you do what I did, which is: "Gay, like everyone else. Be normal, gay." I remember — and this is the thing I regret more than anything else in the world — there's a video of Ross Mathews in 2017 on Twitter saying, "So I came home and landscapers have been in. We're getting more citrus. You can never have too much citrus." And people ask me, "Ross, what do you think about this Milo guy?" And I'm like, "Milo? How low can you go?" I don't know who this person is, but I read it. And he says, "I'm getting letters. This Milo guy — he's resigning from Breitbart or something." And he says, "I'm getting letters from people who say, 'You make it okay that I have a gay son because if he grows up, he doesn't have to be like Ross Mathews.'" And I was like, "No, they should be like Ross Mathews. They should be like Ross Mathews. They shouldn't be like Dave Rubin."

You might not even know unless you watched him for a little bit, because this domesticity of homosexuals has killed all the things that were good about gays that made them tolerable, and instead has given them this grotesque parody, this simulacrum of domesticity, which has, in their never-ending hunger, expanded to include babies. And now we have the Buttigieg couple buying black children.

Tucker Carlson: I thought you weren't allowed to buy people. I thought...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Oh no, you can if you're a homosexual. It's called adoption or surrogacy or whatever. But you can buy them. I thought it was called slavery.

Tucker Carlson: In fact, you have to buy them because it's quite expensive.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Is there some online slave market?

Tucker Carlson: No, no, no. It's the government.

Milo Yiannopoulos: But Dave Rubin has like Franken-sperm babies. He mixed his effluvia with that of his husband — I mean, this is real. This is physical. Gave it a stir and hoped for the best. Whichever one we get, we get. Implanted it in some highly paid woman we'll never know the name of — the real mother of those children — and he and his catamite are on the internet with these signs like, "It's coming," with these two dates. And I'm like, "Yeah, your damnation. That's the date you're counting down to."

How is that conservative? Oh, because it's family, you see. Because it's the sleight of hand that's going on. They're like, "Well, gays are just like everybody else, so we should behave like everybody else, which means we should have kids. And if we can't physically have kids because our sex is this demonic, sterile horror show, then we'll buy them. And then we'll look like we've got..." I mean, that's how bad it is.

So you have — I don't know if it says anything about Republicans versus Democrats, but you have Dave Rubin, for whom buying a child is not good enough. It must be his own. The conceit of that. So on the right, you've got this sort of techno-conceit Franken-baby. And on the left, they adopt blacks. You've got these two wispy, wiry [bleep] who adopted two black babies.

Buttigieg is the most interesting character of our age. He doesn't look like — he looks like an intensely boring homosexual. It's everything gay people shouldn't be. But it's so interesting the fact that I mean, clearly he wasn't gay at the beginning.

Tucker Carlson: Well, he had girlfriends.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Right. So he wasn't gay, but he made himself gay.

Tucker Carlson: I made that point because actually I had gay men who worked for me who were more in tune with this than me. I'm not in tune at all. I just didn't — I thought Pete Buttigieg was a joke. But they said, "Well, he's not really gay." And I was like, "No."

Milo Yiannopoulos: So what does that mean?

Tucker Carlson: Well, his sexuality, like all sexuality, like all homosexuality, is a function, a product, a symptom. What is his homosexuality a symptom of? It's of his vaulting ambition. Buttigieg timed it perfectly so that post-Obama, the gay guy with the black kids — perfect presidential candidate.

Tucker Carlson: So to the, I think, to the heterosexual brain, it's like: are you really saying a guy would switch his, quote, "sexuality" in order to get a better job?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Yeah. Women do it all the time. Lesbianism has got nothing to do with male homosexuality. Just look — everybody knows they got a college girlfriend who was a — they got a girlfriend who was a lesbian in college.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Everybody.

Milo Yiannopoulos: You could barely find a woman who hasn't played around with a woman. Queen Victoria didn't believe that this was sex or that two women would do that with one another. And she refused to accept that women even did that, very wisely realising that lesbianism wasn't real. And so lesbianism wasn't illegal in Britain for a long time when male homosexuality was.

But female sexuality is known in the studies to be far more malleable. Women go backwards and forwards between men all the time. And lesbianism is like a — is a social and political decision. It's a series of social and political decisions. I mean, women want companionship. They want stability. They want safety. They can find that in a woman. They can find that in a butch dyke just as easily as they can find it in an American man these days. I'm sorry. At least she can cash in her Harley-Davidson. What have you got? The warehouse full of eyeliner you've got.

No, I joke, but only slightly. We've seen women do it all the time. They choose to be lesbian all the time. So you don't find it — you don't find the...

Tucker Carlson: I realise it sounds extreme and implausible, but...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, too, to me anyway.

Tucker Carlson: It's like, really?

Milo Yiannopoulos: But we're dealing with a sociopath here. We're dealing with somebody who's entirely divorced from his own emotional, from his own feelings. We're dealing with somebody who will do anything, go anywhere, be anything. I mean, is it so crazy that he would get a boyfriend and adopt these kids? Is that so much more insane than a gay man living in the closet and having a wife and having sex with her and producing children with her? Is that so nuts?

There's probably more sex involved. Is it just like that on steroids? Is it so bonkers? And that's where gay people should be, by the way: in the closet, praying to get better. But is it so wild? It's not wild.

Tucker Carlson: No, you're right. I just hadn't thought of it that way.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And gay men have been doing that for centuries.

Tucker Carlson: Well, I know a bunch of them.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Of course. Well, you work in — and I used to work in — conservative media. And it's all of them. It's everybody. They're all [bleep]. They're all gay. All of them are gay. Everyone is gay.

Tucker Carlson: I haven't said anything about it for like 30 years, just because of my general Anglo commitment to not get involved in other people's business. But it's so noticeable. I just don't know what — clearly there's something going on here.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. I think it's the exercise of power over others, as we talked about.

Tucker Carlson: Really smart. But in this case, Buttigieg — I find him fascinating because he's misjudged, but only slightly, what would be required to be the perfect presidential candidate in 2024, 2028. And he starts off and he's got girlfriends. He's in the military. He's living a normal American life. And then Chasten — I mean, they say that ex-gays often go for Near Eastern women because they're not sexually demanding and they look like boys from behind. You know, Malaysian girls. But isn't Chasten kind of like the closest thing you can get to a girl?

Tucker Carlson: I don't think I know what Chasten looks like.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, you're blessed. His husband is — if you don't know that, then you might know the expression "aged-out twink." But he's about as — the most effeminate man that you could...

Tucker Carlson: Oh, is that true?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Not in the kind of like... So there's — whereas Pete has that kind of fake radio voice...

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And it is a fake voice because you can find recordings of him earlier and he's got more into it the more gay his life has become.

Tucker Carlson: Really?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah.

Tucker Carlson: The bass, the diaphragm.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's like, "Talk from your stomach, Pete. Talk from your..." You can imagine Chasten before he goes on stage: "Remember, babes, from your stomach." He's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Like, from down here. Just imagine, you know, remember what Lindsey said, the speech coach who taught him how to sound heterosexual.

But no, no, it's going down. It's like sinking. It's like there's something in there working its way through this achingly slow form of peristalsis, gradually finding its way down. Eventually, he's going to sound like Gorgaroth when he realises his full potential.

No, he's fake. He's not gay. He's not gay. There's no doubt in my mind. He's not gay. But he's performing homosexuality, including having the sex, but probably not a lot of it. I mean, you don't imagine them — well, I don't want you to imagine anything because I don't wish to leave an unpleasant taste in your mouth. But I'll suggest to your viewers that it's not a particularly sexually active couple, which might also explain how it's possible for somebody to do that. In the same way that a DL gay guy wouldn't be a particularly sexual husband.

Tucker Carlson: Right. Are gay marriages monogamous? That's funny.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Oh, you mean it?

Tucker Carlson: Well, I sense that they're not, having known some.

Milo Yiannopoulos: But are any, I guess, is what I would ask.

Tucker Carlson: I mean, I think you get that sort of elderly antiques dealer in Kentucky kind of...

Milo Yiannopoulos: That's so good.

Tucker Carlson: We have a senator like that.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Who, if he found a husband who was prepared to put up with — I really shouldn't. Look up the ladybugs. Look up his ladybugs. It's on the internet.

Tucker Carlson: We have so many senators like that. That's crazy.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, I think people know the one I mean.

Tucker Carlson: Oh, the actual one from Kentucky?

Milo Yiannopoulos: No, no. A little bit over. You can imagine he sort of invites his friend Jasper in for a mint julep. And it's like, "Do you want to just sit there while I get myself dusted up?" Yes, of course, there are loads. But I'm thinking of the one in particular that everybody kind of...

Tucker Carlson: You said you don't out people, so I feel like...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm not going to use Mitch McConnell's name.

Tucker Carlson: It was Lindsey Graham. Sorry.

Milo Yiannopoulos: But no, I...

Tucker Carlson: It's a shame, isn't it? The falling over, the... How long are you going to stagger on? They're determined to turn themselves into the goblins that dictate their behaviour.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, that's the thing about... And I'm not... There's a bloodthirstiness that's just really distressing and offensive to me.

Tucker Carlson: But think about it like this. The sassy, vindictive, catty cruelty of the homosexual. Imagine what he'd be like if you gave him a nuclear button. It sounds stupid, but it's a continuum. It's a spectrum. And so those gays that have the will to power, they go get some and they use it to bomb people or to bully. I mean, how much must they all get off on the fact that they are all having sex and nobody would dare touch it. Nobody outs them. Nobody says a thing. And all living lies to their constituents. This is... I mean, we were joking earlier about outing people, but like, that's why I have a thirst for it: because it's hypocrisy. It's public hypocrisy. I'm not interested in outing, like, Joe Simpson who has a corner store.

I'm interested in outing people who are misrepresenting themselves to the public. And I'll... Somebody just got married with wedding pictures and with engagement pictures that are so absurd.

Tucker Carlson: I know.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I figured him out, by the way. I figured him out. I could never work out this guy. I was like, "What is it that's off with you?" And I realised he always wants a bigger laugh than the joke he tells commands. And it's because he's actually obese but in the body of a merely fat person. Like, if you think of him as like 400 pounds, he suddenly makes sense because he's always doing this. And you're like, "Oh, you're a fat person. You're a giant fat person." So he's like a really fat gay in the body of like a merely slightly overweight gay. And suddenly his personality begins to make sense. He does all these fat ticks that fat people do to get a bigger laugh than their wit would normally allow for. And everybody laughs anyway because they're fat. Fat people are just funny because they're fat. And he acts like he's funny because he's fat, but he's not fat.

Tucker Carlson: You're talking about Cory Booker.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah.

The Question of Monogamy in Gay Relationships

Tucker Carlson: Just back to the question, though. Is monogamy an expectation in a gay marriage?

Milo Yiannopoulos: I think it's an aspiration. I think it's a stated ambition. But, you know, like all ambitions, we state something we know we can never reach because in grasping for it we achieve greatness. And so maybe they only have sex with 20 people a year instead of 200. And that would be gay fidelity. That would be good.

Tucker Carlson: Really?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Oh yeah.

Tucker Carlson: I'm not even...

Milo Yiannopoulos: I mean, maybe I'll tell you, but like... Because there's no woman there to enforce it.

Tucker Carlson: So I've always...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Exactly. And normally, no kids to... "How could you lose your children?" Blah. This is why living on the DL in marriage with a woman is the optimum environment for a homosexual, because all of the social cues are pushing them to do what they know that they should be doing anyway, which is working on eradicating these disordered urges, as the religious excavators would put it, or unwanted same-sex attraction, as the reparative therapists would have it. Whatever it is, all of the cues and the pressure is moving them in the right way.

And so, no, I mean, that's good. Alan Turing, for God's sake, was living like that.

Tucker Carlson: Who was Alan Turing?

Milo Yiannopoulos: He was living like that. And they castrated him anyway, which seems a bit mean to me, after the war, after he'd won the war for them. It's like, "Okay, that's all brilliant, but we're going to chemically castrate you." I was like, "God, can I let him crack one out after he won the bloody war for you?" Brits can be savage like that.

Tucker Carlson: So do you know the happiness level of people who are involved in like promiscuous gay sex? What's it...?

Milo Yiannopoulos: When you live that kind of life, you're living deep in profound denial. And it comes from... I read something in maybe the Atlantic or Mother Jones, one of some, all places, some left-wing gay guy who just wrote about this really beautifully. I'll try to find it on Twitter after this. But he said when homosexuals are young, they realise they have to put on different faces for different people. I guess the racial equivalent would be code-switching.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And they realise, and the effect of this on a person who has disordered urges — unlike someone who just happens to be black — is that it begins to create cracks and ultimately that turn into shards in the personality. Like, bits of the personality burst, ping off like a chandelier hitting the floor.

Tucker Carlson: And it's so sad.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. And it produces the space for profound denial of the type that most homosexual men find themselves in, where that flooding of addictive urge is mistaken for healthy and normal sexual attraction.

And so I kind of stumbled — when I looked into it, I just woke up one day and I was married to a dude, to my shame, who's now like the ex-wife from hell. My God. Look, if there's no other reason to not be gay, just imagine how bad a black homosexual ex-wife is. It's like, "Oh, sorry. Two sports cars a year wasn't enough." Okay. All right. Okay.

But I woke up one day and I looked over and I was like, "Oh no. I don't want to do this anymore. Hell is real. I don't want to go there." And it just hit me. And it had been growing, you know, for a while. I was just like, "No, no, I really don't want to go there." And the way that I started to address this, I kind of stumbled upon a crude version of what the enlightened — they don't call it conversion therapy anymore. They call it reintegrative therapy because it's reintegrating those shards and those broken bits of memory that lead to the wrong output.

We can talk in detail if you want to, but I stumbled upon kind of a crude version of that. So when I was trying to stop myself from doing this stuff, I was using hot oil on my thighs. I was doing things that hurt. And I was trying to rewire my brain because I'd read a lot of psychology, anthropology books and stuff like that. So I thought, "I know sex urge is such a basic and powerful urge. It's got to be hard."

Tucker Carlson: I thought I knew what I was doing.

Milo Yiannopoulos: So I was like, "Every time I get aroused, I'm going to go and do something that hurts." And so I took the... You know, like paying my taxes. No. You know, like having sex with black people. No, no, no. I did something immediately to try to redo that. And there's a much better way to do it, which I can talk to you about.

I was recognising in that that I had this — that something had jumped the tracks in my brain. And I was having an incorrect response to a particular stimulus as a result of damage, trauma, whatever. And that is a little bit like being a PTSD victim or some other kinds of sexual deviance. And that I knew I could train my way out of it because at the same time I had been returning to the Catholic faith of my childhood. And I had been speaking to a dear friend. She's a brilliant professor in Chicago. She's the world's leading expert on Marian devotion in the Middle Ages. And she was feeding me this rich material about training the soul in virtue. And I was like, "Okay, well, if I can do it about that because I'm getting pretty good at that, what about this?"

And so I did this stuff and I got myself as far as celibacy, which is where I — I'm coming in January. It'll be five years.

Tucker Carlson: Oh. Celibacy.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. And the good thing about the male libido is: the less you have, the less you want.

Tucker Carlson: Which married men can tell you is the only reason they're still married.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It's exactly like that.

Tucker Carlson: Why? Because it's an appetite, not a sexual orientation. It's an appetite. It's an addiction. And the more that you have — cocaine or Adderall — the more that you are likely on a given Tuesday afternoon to be like, "Ooh, lime would be nice," or, "Ooh, why don't I have a little instant release 30 milligrams? That'll get me through the..." It works the same. It functions the same. It is the same.

Tucker Carlson: I remember reading during the AIDS period about the number of sexual partners a year, which is crazy high. I think it's all been banned. You're not allowed to talk about it anymore. But I remember thinking, you know, if those were all like hot girls, would I want to sleep with 75? Probably. You wouldn't be able to get through it. Honestly, I don't think most straight men would. It'd be like, "Yeah, you know, I mean, men are obviously pigs and like variety and all."

Milo Yiannopoulos: You hit on something real, which is that...

Tucker Carlson: Well, I'm trying to be as honest as I can. I'm sure I'll be mocked for this, but I did wonder, like, if there's...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Because there's something wrong with the act itself if you're doing it with that many people.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Now, there's a component of it where it's like the women are setting up the friction there. They're the ones with the precious jewel that they're setting up barriers to. Men will put out. If a man wants to have sex, they're normally the person asking for the sex. They're normally the ones who are seeking the sex.

Tucker Carlson: Women are normally the ones who are — I won't say withholding it, but regulating the access to it. Let's say, as the enforcers.

Milo Yiannopoulos: For sure.

Tucker Carlson: Take that away and put two men on there and you're like, "Well, if they both want it, they're both going to do it all the time."

Milo Yiannopoulos: Of course.

Tucker Carlson: But that doesn't really explain the...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Exactly. That was my thought. It's like, if there was no limit...

Tucker Carlson: If good-looking women wanted to — this is my younger self thinking of this — if they wanted to sleep with me as much as I wanted to sleep with them, I still don't think I'd sleep with 75 of them in a year because that sounds kind of gross.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, I mean, by gay standards, that's practically celibate. I mean, maybe not these days with the boring gays that adopt the children who don't have sex with each other and just molest the kids. But by the old-fashioned gay standards of the taboo-breaking, promiscuous drug... I mean, look, I grew up in London taking a lot of [bleep] drugs, going to a lot of clubs, going to Heaven, and then, of course, in London you had a circuit of clubs: Trade and Beyond and DTPM at whatever. There was a circuit every weekend. It was four continuous days, which you could only really do with drugs, and during that time, stops off for sex. I mean, 75 takes you up to February, actually. I mean, I probably was a lot worse than usual, and group scenarios and whatever. But yeah, I mean, it doesn't fully explain the grotesque extent.

And by the way, it's always the gay couples that are basically lesbians that live sterile — they live these sexless lives — who are incensed when you dare to talk about gay promiscuity. It's not because gay promiscuity doesn't exist. It's because they don't have access to it. But most gays do. And what we are thinking about in our hypothetical example of two men doesn't explain the full grotesque extent of it. And it's because there is something unsatisfying about gay sex.

Tucker Carlson: Well, that was my assumption.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And you're correct. And it's... So Catholic natural law and the way that the therapies work, they start with this presumption that things are working properly when they are performing the function for which they were designed.

Tucker Carlson: Yes.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Right. Clearly, an erect member going into the wrong orifice is not doing — is not performing the function for which it was designed. So sex that ends that way cannot possibly be satisfying. It's not permissible spiritually. It's not satisfying physically. So if you take Catholic Church teaching, for instance...

Tucker Carlson: No, I think that's real and that's true for eating and it's true for beauty and it's true for...

Milo Yiannopoulos: The sex is sterile.

Tucker Carlson: No, but every pleasure that's like a righteous pleasure satisfies you.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah. Only.

Tucker Carlson: Fifteen of them.

Milo Yiannopoulos: But, like, justice feels good. You know, when you see somebody wicked get their comeuppance and you're like, "Yeah." And that feels like — a lot of that feels — it feels a little like, as you say, righteous pleasures. All of which tend toward the kind of satisfaction that a lot of people describe getting in Holy Communion.

Tucker Carlson: It's filling.

Milo Yiannopoulos: It is filling. It is filling. That little wafer is very filling.

Tucker Carlson: Right?

Milo Yiannopoulos: The further you get away from that, the less satisfying things are by volume. If you like, that tiny little wafer, which is complete — you feel like you don't need to eat, drink, think, pray anything else the rest of your whole life. You just feel perfect in that moment. Like, you are just in that brief moment in dialogue with our Lord in some fashion. And you're like, "That's my Sunday vibes," you know. And it's not until Monday morning that life kind of comes back at you.

The further you get away from that, the more stuff you need to approach the same level of satisfaction. Think about the fake sugar you have over here, the corn starch, whatever it's called. How much Hershey's chocolate you have to eat to feel the same as two squares of Capri. Or how many Reese's Peanut Butter Cups equals a steak.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, I really noticed that. I mean, by the way, Halloween candy — I don't know much about calories, but you could eat like millions of calories, but you can't eat six pounds of steak. It's just not possible. But the point is, not that sugar is bad necessarily, but that this fake sugar that has that waxy taste that's not really — you need so much more of it to feel satisfied, to get your sugar hit.

Tucker Carlson: That is totally right.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And in so doing, you have so many more calories.

Tucker Carlson: Right?

Milo Yiannopoulos: And you start to get fat. And then you need not just six Cokes but eight Cokes a day instead of one.

So homosexual sex is sterile. It's not capable of leading to production — excuse me — of procreation. You cannot make a baby with gay sex. It is spiritually unsatisfying in addition to being — and of course these two things are connected — physically unsatisfying too. And when you start to think about, like, everything working, performing the function for which it was designed, doing that for which it was intended, you start to realise why gay sex is not hitting, you know. And this is the basis. This is the start. This is where the therapy begins. It begins...

The Therapy Process

Tucker Carlson: Can I just ask you one extra question before you describe how your life has changed? And I don't mean to rush on to that.

Milo Yiannopoulos: No, no. I'm fascinated by it.

Tucker Carlson: But I just find it so interesting. So you spent like an hour and 20 minutes describing the hell that you lived. You thought it was hellish.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Mm-hmm.

Tucker Carlson: You left. And it sounds like you feel better and certainly resolved.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yeah.

Tucker Carlson: But you're not encouraged to feel that way. Like, there's something about the life that you lived that's treated like a gang initiation or something. Like, you can check in, but you can never leave. You're not welcome to leave.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, just look at the comments you get. Forgive the language, but under every post that I will make online or every interview, one phrase keeps popping up over and over again in the comments: "You can't un-suck a dick." Meaning, there's no salvation for you once you're gay. You're gay.

Tucker Carlson: That's it.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Who's pushing that?

Tucker Carlson: The stain that that leaves, which is profoundly un-Christian. I mean, we think about Isaiah: "Your sins may be scarlet, but they'll be washed white as snow." Saul became Paul.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Doesn't exist for these people. And it's often leftist, but not always, insisting on this permanence of this stain. And there's more to it than merely just, "I hate you and I want you to hurt," or "You're doing something stupid," or whatever. There's something more going on. And people are terrified by the idea that this might not be an intrinsic part of a person's personality or nature.

Tucker Carlson: Why are they afraid of that? I thought we were for personal choice.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, we're all a bit afraid of that, aren't we? Because we see other people who are doing well in life or who have got themselves out of a sticky situation or who left their phone on the table when they went to the bathroom in the break or whatever, and who lash out against others who do seem to be achieving something redemptive. And isn't it true that one of those characterisations of the demons is that they're in the presence of the light, in the presence of good, of the Word of God, they hiss and spit?

And it's not necessarily these people are gay themselves, but to confront the horror that a gay person might be able to un-gay means that whatever you've got going in your life, you could fix easy. But you don't want to, do you? You don't want to get better. You want to stop. Because if he can stop having sex with men, knowing what a powerful compulsion urge that is for most men, that might mean I have to stop drinking. That might mean I have to stop taking drugs. That might mean I have to stop being a fat-arse. That might mean I have to stop being cruel, being vindictive, abusive, malicious.

And I think that part of it is certainly that we have become a society that encourages vice over virtue, that aggressively pushes sin. Why? Because dumb, dependent people are easier to control. Because dumb, dependent people living paycheque to paycheque, enslaved not only to — and we live in a particularly evil environment now where we're not just enslaved to things, we're enslaved to the mechanisms by which we get them. Compound interest. Our car payments. All this kind of stuff. Fifty-year mortgages. Yeah, thanks, Trump. How many years of that are we just paying down the interest before we own a brick in the house?

We're now enslaved to these meta-addictions or these additional layers of problem, which mean that we can't even do anything about our lives because one missed paycheque and we can't do anything. We can't do anything about it because we're locked in from every single angle into our addictions, into our compulsions, into the bad food that we eat at the supermarket because it's cheap and the TV we watch we know we shouldn't and the video games that are fine by themselves but which — 20 hours over the weekend? That's a lot, bro. Just all this stuff. And it's packaged and it's pushed and it's encouraged.

And just look at the sponsors. I looked at the sponsors of Jimmy Kimmel's show when he was taken off the air. And it's doughnuts and banks. Look at the sponsors of Jimmy Kimmel's show and you're like, "Oh my God." These are evil, wretched, terrible people who just want you fat, stupid, and quiet.

Tucker Carlson: There's no question in my mind you're telling the truth. It's too obvious. We want you dumb and independent.

Milo Yiannopoulos: And do you think the relentless promotion of homosexuality is part of that? Because it is relentlessly, tirelessly promoted, period. Anyone who says it's not is a liar.

Tucker Carlson: What is more incapacitating? What is more incapacitating? Having no control over your own sexual desires. And just look at how comfy capitalism has made itself with homosexuals. Like, "Oh, you've got no kids. Well, perhaps you'd like these designer clothes." Or, "Oh, you don't have any dependents? Well, maybe you'd like to spend way more than you should on this cruise." Or, "Oh, all your disposable income is yours to spend. Well, perhaps you'd like to try our pan-roasted blah blah blah blah blah."

They used to call it the pink pound in England. This disproportionate ability of gays to spend, which has a reinforcing effect. It's like a magnifying or fortifying effect because, of course, gays spend more, so you market more to gays, so you get more of them. And then other people begin to acquire gay tastes, which has happened to women and is now happening to men, because it's seen as a prestige or a luxury or a desirable kind of lifestyle.

So you see men, as the charming ladies of YouTube would tell us, who are acquiring gay habits and getting...

Tucker Carlson: I mean, like Soul Cycle. Please. Like, what are these people doing? It's like, "You're in leggings and you want me to see your arse." Got it. Because this is doing nothing.

Milo Yiannopoulos: What other gay habits are men acquiring?

Tucker Carlson: Definitely food.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Which I mean, like, if you're a chap... So I was in the hotel last night as I was thinking about the show, and I looked at the menu and I was like, "There's nothing on here for men." It was all these like seafood, handwoven butter, whatever. And the guy that was serving me had a huge ginger beard. God bless him. And I said, "You don't eat here." And he said, "Well..." And I said, "You don't eat here. Where do you eat?" And he said, "Okay, fine." And I said, "Is there anything on here that you would eat aside from this?" And it didn't say how big the fillet was, but I was like, "What is it? Six ounces. What? Do you need four of those?" And he was like, "Yeah." And I said, "You wouldn't eat anything because there's nothing for men on the menu."

Because it's all this airy-fairy, unsatisfying, calorie-full of flavour but no protein food for girls. All food for girls. Look at the menu in your favourite restaurant. Look at the menu in every restaurant. There's no food for men on it. I mean, where is it? Even like a heroic meat like lamb, it's like $78 for this little... "Thanks so much." What is that? That's not man food.

So food, for sure. I mean, clothing. Let's not even... Sexual habits. Women have become faggotised by the promiscuity culture that their gay best friends like to have a nudge and a wink kind of relationship with. Like, "Oh, I don't do it, but who's this? Oh, just Jamal. Who's this? That's not the guy that you were with like three days ago. Quiet, girl." "Sorry about her."

And men just the way in which the self-destructive sacrifice, the relinquishment of the will to the most addictive version of everything. It's very gay. Very gay.

Tucker Carlson: The most addictive version of everything.

Milo Yiannopoulos: So, like, if gay sex is like addiction where it just floods your mind with the chemicals where you can't get it out of your head, like we were talking about right at the beginning, the food has become like that and the clothes have become like that. And men buying designer clothes has always been a bit sus to me.

Tucker Carlson: Oh, I totally agree. I mean, I do it because I've got about another three years where I can still get away with this and then I'm going to have to just be straight. Well, I can still do it. And then I'm going to have to find my own nudge and a wink thing. Like, "Oh no, they're Arlano. Oh, that's the late Pope Benedict XVI's favourite shoemaker." Faggotage. Stop it. I have to give all this up.

But somebody's been heterosexual all their life — what are you doing in Dior? Well, I mean, they only make shoes, I think. No, no, there's male Dior now. What are you doing in Dolce & Gabbana? What are you doing in Versace? Why are you spending $1,000 on a pair of shoes that is not like a tactical or... And even that stuff. Oh my God. The faggotisation of — you know, you can go now, you can go to Crye Precision and you can get the Versace of camo, which their salespeople will even call it that. Not on the website because men don't like that. But there's now like designer camo where, like, I mean, I know I have it, but...

Faggotised. Everything is. Look at the consumer choice. Who's making these decisions? Women. And we have... Women in the marketing departments. Women in the advertising. Women on social media. Everything's going gay. And it's justified. And just same with the pink pound, it's self-reinforcing. This thing we always say, "Oh, women make most of the purchasing decisions in most houses." Shut up. Doesn't mean every man has to go out looking like he wants to drop on his knees in a public park or in a toilet just because his wife chooses what washing powder they use. Stop it.

Everything has gone gay. Everything's gone... I mean, just every bit of life. I mean, music. Now we force heterosexuals to listen to Lil Nas X. And this sort of endless turnover of pining homosexual crooners that we call pop stars. There aren't any anymore because pop stars require a kind of heroic, manly virtue, I think, that is just gone now. It's just not there anymore.

Tucker Carlson: So if you wanted to weaken a society to the point of collapse...

Milo Yiannopoulos: Faggotise it. It's not feminisation. That's a mistake to believe that. It's not. Society is not becoming feminised. It's becoming faggotised. It has been gayed. And it's like the difference between effeminacy and femininity. You look carefully at the behaviours. It's like, it might have started off feminised. Like you said, "Oh, the HR departments have feminised language in the corporate sphere and blah blah." It might have started that way, but the gays took over very soon afterwards. And so now we don't have a feminised public square. We have a faggotised public square.

And it's hardly surprising given that everybody in Congress and everybody in the Senate and everybody in the party and everybody on TV and everybody else that you've ever heard of on television and everybody on all the TV shows are gay. It's not a shocker that this would be the result. Because even if they might be living DL lives, they still like what they like and they're still going to do it. "Oh yes, let's have that little cocktail." They still do it. You see in DC these men in DC like drinking their little champagnes and things. And so when you are... I mean, a lot of this is like walking into a room full of women and there's all this stuff going on but you have no idea what it is. It's a daily occurrence for me. But something's going on, but you don't quite get it. You're not recognising it because it's not feminine. Because you'd recognise it if it was feminine. You'd know what you were looking at.

But when you go to Washington, when you were flitting around Washington, when you were...

Tucker Carlson: What was your Dangerous Faggot Tour? Is that what it was called?

Milo Yiannopoulos: Yes. And I think the verb would be "flit" or perhaps "flounce."

Tucker Carlson: There was some flouncing. I saw it.

Milo Yiannopoulos: There was a bit of flouncing.

Tucker Carlson: Do you know a funny story? A perfect — sorry to cut you off again. I've been doing this the whole day. But a perfect illustration of the faggotisation of society. My bus, my giant Dangerous Faggot bus, is in a parking lot just outside Washington, DC. And Mike Pence's advance team are planning to put him in the same hotel, and they have to change hotel.

Tucker Carlson: Yeah.

Milo Yiannopoulos: No. Stop. But they have to change... I mean, he's like spiritually gay, for sure. But he had to change hotels and divert his — I mean, this is the incoming vice president of the United States — to make way for the [bleep].

Tucker Carlson: Just saying. It wasn't like the first time they could have come to me and said, "Would you mind? Because we have the vice president-elect coming in. This is 2017, so he is the vice president by then. We have the vice president coming through. Would you...?" And we would have said, "Yeah, sure. We'll go to the Residence Inn." But no, they just changed all of his plans, not mine, to make way for the [bleep].

Perfect analogy, isn't it?

Tucker Carlson: Perfect. But you picked up that vibe a lot when you were in Washington.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Oh my God. The number of people who... Sorry, you told me you don't out people. I think allegations have been roundly disproven, haven't they? But, you know, the number of people who would just — I mean, they didn't quite say, "Hop on my lap," but...

Tucker Carlson: So you — I mean, because you're on that wavelength.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Well, 10 years ago I was very beautiful, and I didn't notice.

Tucker Carlson: Of course you didn't notice. You've been upset about it ever since.

Milo Yiannopoulos: Tucker never said I was...

Tucker Carlson: No. No.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I was very good-looking. I was in shape and all the rest of it. And now I mean, it was like a daily avalanche. Never needed to visit Niagara Falls. I just like... I've got a giant torrent coming. But let me... I won't finish that metaphor. But no, just...

No, it's like a torrent was...

Tucker Carlson: So how has your life changed day-to-day now that you're celibate and getting away from, trying to overcome, your gay sexual impulses?

Life After Celibacy

Milo Yiannopoulos: I don't really have them anymore. Not often. My life is... So I've learned... Well, the first thing to say is that dogs have stopped barking at me.

Tucker Carlson: What?

Milo Yiannopoulos: I mean, I used to set dogs off. Like, really set dogs off. Like, they would go crazy around me. And when I...

Tucker Carlson: Yeah. Yeah. With hostility or affection?

Milo Yiannopoulos: I mean, they can sense evil. My spiritual... I can only tell this joke because it's my spiritual director that said it. I said, "Do you think it's because they can sense evil?" He said, "No, it's because you don't smell