Candace x Milo: The Rise of the Gaytriarchy | Candace Ep 234 | Candace Owens Transcript

Candace Owens and Milo Yiannopoulos discuss homosexuality, culture, and the Catholic faith

Candace Owens interviews Milo Yiannopoulos on her podcast about his personal journey away from homosexuality, the cultural and political forces behind LGBT normalization, and the broader spiritual and societal implications.

Summary

Candace Owens hosts Milo Yiannopoulos for a wide-ranging conversation about homosexuality, faith, Western cultural decline, and the state of conservative media. Milo describes his personal journey from an active homosexual life to celibacy and a return to the Catholic faith, arguing that homosexuality is not an immutable characteristic but a disorder rooted in childhood trauma, absent fathers, and overbearing mothers. Both speakers argue that the "born this way" narrative was a deliberate political construction designed to foreclose the possibility of change, and draw parallels to the transgender movement. The conversation extends into the role of Hollywood, Freemasonry, Sigmund Freud, and Kabbalistic mysticism in deliberately introducing homosexual culture into American society, and argues that broken, dependent individuals are easier for governments and corporations to control.

A substantial portion of the conversation focuses on Bari Weiss and The Free Press, which both speakers argue is being deliberately overvalued by billionaire investors not for its journalistic merit but to build the propaganda infrastructure of tomorrow — with Milo arguing that malleable, identity-fluid individuals make ideal figureheads for such operations.

The episode closes with an extended reflection on the collapse of intellectual standards in conservative media since 2015, including Milo's self-critical admission that years of ghostwriting books for non-intellectual figures contributed to the dumbing-down of conservative discourse.

Milo expresses deep personal regret for having normalized "out and proud" homosexuality in right-wing politics, and credits his return to the Catholic faith — including learning Latin and receiving conditional baptism — as the foundation of his recovery.

Key Takeaways

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Introduction and Milo's Personal Journey Away from Homosexuality

Candace Owens: I feel like today is a very great day to discuss homosexuality. I grew up in the '90s and we were taught in school that some people are born gay. The older that I get, and I speak to people who struggle with homosexuality or live out homosexual lives, the majority of them don't think they were born gay. They typically will correlate their homosexuality to some event that happened in their past. I want to discuss this theme today because virtually everything that I'm reading right now, whether it's Hollywood Babylon or getting into Sigmund Freud and the history of Jewish mysticism, there is some element of homosexuality. Is this a part of an occultic practice? Has homosexuality been pushed upon our society because it is disordering? Anyway, here to join me, Milo Yiannopoulos.

Let me start from the beginning here.

Milo Yiannopoulos: I want to say I've never struggled with homosexuality. I was brilliant at it from day one. But it did occur to me five years ago that hell was real and I don't want to go.

Candace: So you say you're a reformed or a recovered homosexual?

Milo: I say ex-gay because it sounds hilarious. But the truth — ex-gay does sound good, doesn't it? — the truth is, as far as I've got so far, is celibacy. And the good thing about the male libido is the less you have, the less you want. I never thought that I would be happy not really having sexual activity per se, but that's fine. And now I'm into the messy, difficult, and terrifying business of casting my eye over the female population. It's probably more terrifying for them than it is for me. And figuring out if there's anybody there who could be quiet for long enough to be my wife. I'm just kidding, of course.

It has nagged at me and irritated me since I came back to my faith, the Catholic faith, that I wasn't able to participate in that last holy sacrament. I was confirmed very late in life actually. And it's a blessing to be able to not just remember it, but to have had a very fancy affair. I had the full Latin, the Institute of Christ the King. They do a conditional baptism. You get exorcised three times on the way into the church. You have to get on your knees and go in. So converts normally have this, but if you have a conditional baptism, they make you do this as an adult. You have to read the Our Father and a few other things in Latin. And then confirmation is over very quickly. It was beautiful and it was lovely to be able to have that as an adult, and it was a very important part of my return to as close to faithful Catholic life as I can get.

But it was bugging me that I wasn't able to participate in something that everybody should. And there's something very magical and very special about not just marriage but about children, because it is — the time before you die, before you get to heaven — where you get to do something with our Lord. It's called co-procreation. Two people make the baby biologically, but our Lord puts a soul in there. And so co-procreation with God is huge. You haven't just made love with your husband or your wife. You haven't just created a baby. You have participated in creation with God. And it's something that men can do even if they can't bear children — they still get to do that.

The truth is, it's not a very good answer, but it sort of crept up on me. One day I woke up and I remember the short chain of thought I had, and it's what I said a moment ago: hell is real and I don't want to go. Just like that.

The "Born This Way" Mythology and Its Political Origins

Candace: It's very interesting because I grew up learning in school, if you go to the public school system, that some people are gay, some people are straight, and we need to normalize homosexuality. That's why we have terms like homophobic, which I don't know what that means. I guess it means you're scared of gay people. I think about this now, having read Hollywood Babylon and getting into Sigmund Freud and the sort of mystical tradition. It's really interesting because we of course have no memory of what happened on this earth before we were here. I sort of assumed, very wrongly, that there was always this kind of current of homosexuality in American culture. But it actually happened quite quickly. And beyond quite quickly, it also happened quite intentionally when you take a look at the establishment of Hollywood and them thinking through how to infect the Christian culture in America.

Milo: That had happened a few different times in different ways elsewhere in the history of Western civilization. But really, prior to the middle ages, homosexuality is sort of conceived of completely differently — in the same way that race, you know, people living in 1100 would just have no idea what we were talking about if we were talking about somebody being white or not white in the American way.

The most recent explosion of this, funnily enough, happened in a way that was kind of a test run for what the media later did with Trump. The first full media assault — like what they did to Trump, like what they did on January 6th — was about conversion therapy in the '80s. At that time, after maybe half a century of this stuff digging in after the 1910s, '20s, and '30s in Hollywood, half a century had passed and people still thought homosexuals were dirty and sleazy and that it was a moral choice. And the campaigners couldn't get over this hurdle. So what they came up with was: well, if it's like being Black or if it's like being a woman, then if somebody doesn't like it, they're a bigot. That works.

So the "born this way" mythology was created to meet ideological objectives out of whole cloth, and it has never been even remotely demonstrated by science. The closest that anybody will truthfully get is to say there appear to be some people who have some sort of predispositions, maybe. But it is vastly more to do with nurture than it is to do with nature. And in any case, even if you are one of those people, it is possible to overcome what they call disordered urges — "unwanted same-sex attraction" is the PC term. It is possible, even though you may be suffering with what is a terrible curse, to not do it.

Candace: What's interesting is that I've had to reconsider my childhood programming on this. I love that you call it the "born this way" mythology. That's a great way of saying it, because that's what it was — it's political propaganda. And I think the best example of that currently, because we're living through it, is this insistence that people are born trans. You can see how they infect that propaganda, how it starts with the television screens. I Am Jazz was sort of the first time they did this — that TLC show. They said Jazz is trans, and it became this cultural phenomenon, got so much coverage. And nobody tells you the end point and the struggles that Jazz is facing today. They were able to get all of these kids. I grew up and nobody was trans, and now all of a sudden you have all of these parents who are convinced that their children are born that way.

The Transgender Movement and Parental Psychology

Milo: People are always amazed at the horrors that parents can do to their own children, but they shouldn't be, because people do all kinds of terrible things to their kids, whether it's everyday neglect or something more serious and dramatic. The trans thing fixed a really big problem for the parents of gay kids — or kids who show signs of those sorts of behaviors early on, and lots do, because the damage happens early. It fixed a big problem, which is: what did I do wrong? Because if you don't have a gay child that you messed up, but instead have a trans child who has a problem, who has a disease, who has a syndrome, who has something wrong with them, then you're off the hook. You're not bad parents. In fact, you're victims, because your kid has got this thing that nobody would ever want for their own child. And so you become brave and you become a hero, and your child becomes the crucible in which your social anxieties about having messed up as a parent and made your kid gay — which is what you did — are resolved and sanctified.

Because in fact, all of these kids who are seized and mutilated, if they were left alone, would be what we would call gay men. And without the interference, without the injection into the process of these crazed trans campaigners, they would have a hope of a way out. But once you've started chopping things off, you create so many psychological and body image problems that you're no longer just dealing with the fact that you had an overbearing mother, an absent father, and you didn't form sustainable platonic relationships with men as a young boy, and something went wrong in your head — or that you got raped. It could happen for any mixture or all of those reasons. I had a bit of all of them.

Once you start chopping part of that person off, you cut them off from salvation. You cut them off from redemption. You cut them off from hope. Because if you can stop doing that stuff, at least you're still you, and you have potential and possibility and you could do and be anything, as long as you're still in possession of your health, your faculties, your whatever. But once you start mutilating somebody because parents find it easier to believe their kids have a disease, which is not their fault, than that they messed up as parents and that they're gay — even if you were able to somehow switch the trajectory of your desire from one sex to another, which does happen — it's not everybody who goes into conversion therapy who wins. Best case scenario, you've got like a one in five chance. It's not good odds. It's better than cancer, but it's not great. If you start cutting things off immediately, there's nowhere to come home to.

And the problem that gay kids have is that they start early on being different people in front of different audiences. They know that they can't be their sassy selves in front of their grandparents, for instance. And this, eventually unchecked, becomes a kind of fractured personality, which is the bedrock reason why gay people are always so dishonest and always up to stuff — because they have these competing identities that are not reconciled. They are playing characters in front of different people who become almost like fully-fledged people in their own right. It is a kind of lay-person schizophrenia — it's not schizophrenia, but it becomes disorienting and debilitating.

What you're able to do, if you have different people you can lean into and lean out of — like an actor, but in real life — is do things to those characters because they're not you. And you might not know really who you is. The character that is the sexual person, you can begin to degrade them, you can begin to humiliate them, you can get off on suffering, even if it's you, because it's a role play. Because everything in your life is a role play, because you're simply replacing one facade with another constantly everywhere you go. And so because your personality is kind of broken into bits, you can at any point see any of it as not being really you, and you can do awful things to it.

Candace: It's so funny that you say that, because somebody that I know who used to live a homosexual lifestyle and doesn't anymore — I was opening up to him about a gay guy that we had hired a while ago who very quickly was lying to us and stealing from us. He was fantastic at his job. We were so good to him. And the question that he asked me was: was there something about it? He said a lot of gay men are sociopaths because they have to lie so much about who they are and what they're doing, and it shapes their brain early on. And then later on in life it becomes very easy — when you're lying, you don't even feel like you're lying, because you've nurtured this ability to be dishonest for so long.

Milo: I wouldn't say it's because they have to lie about who they are, because there's something hidden in there — there's a little something embedded in that framing that suggests that maybe it's homophobia that makes them damaged or miserable, and that's not what's going on. What people with these disordered desires are doing — knowing that it is wrong and it is not normal — you know that you're supposed to be into girls. I had relationships with girls. I just wasn't really feeling it. But you feel drawn to this other thing and you know that it's wrong, and it's as much wanting to distance yourself from the moral responsibility and culpability of doing it as it is presenting different faces. That becomes the reason why gay people have this sort of fractured personality.

But it's not sociopathy. They feel things intensely. That hysteria is not the shallow hysteria of a sociopathic mom who's going to drown her kid. It's different. They're in pain, they're hurting. When they cry, it's real. But they're bouncing between different personalities and different identities. And your man there — from his perspective, it was like somebody else was doing that. He is responsible and he did do it and he must face the consequences, because it will help him to reintegrate. They now call conversion therapy "reintegrative therapy" for reasons you will immediately understand having listened to me talk. They need that impetus. They need to get caught.

But they are in pain, acting out. And very often you'll find with gay men they will do this stuff almost to get caught, because they want somebody to notice that everything's not all right. When the alphabetized CD collection, perfect employee who's kind of "Yes, I'll take care of that for you" needs you to know that they're in pain, they'll do something like steal, or say or do something despicable. They're acting out because they want to be noticed. It's a cry for help.

Candace: So it's interesting now, re-examining why it is that we learned that homosexuality is this immutable characteristic — it's like being Black, it's like being a woman, this person is just gay — and how it doesn't allow people to get better. It would be absurd, giving a totally different example, if someone is an alcoholic and we said, "Oh, that's who you always were deep down. You were always an alcoholic. So just keep drinking. It's totally fine." Yes, if you go to rehab, you don't have a 100% chance of getting sober. But knowing and saying to a society that this is unhealthy, it forecloses —

Milo: Exactly. You have immediately intuited exactly the key thing about this. They don't want people to get better. If you tell somebody that that's what they are — more even than who they are — you're robbing them of the ability to make changes. Like, you're an alcoholic because it's totally a genetic trait and your dad was an alcoholic and now you're an alcoholic and it's not your fault. There's nothing we can do about it. You mean, in a way, you should probably just drink, right? And we'll deal with the consequences later. Robbing that person maybe of the ability to get sober and to have a family, to stop beating their wife, to get their kids back.

That's the main thing. That's why I think it's such an important discussion to reopen. It's funny because you've got kids — you immediately understood what the problem was. Nobody gets it when I say, what's the problem with telling somebody that it's what they are? But you immediately got it because you have children now. That's what it is. All of the pathways to — I used the word "salvation" metaphorically earlier, but I mean it literally too. It's barring your way to heaven. And that's what's so wicked about it.

Homosexual Families and the Origins of Same-Sex Attraction

Candace: And so you see people who have normalized this, and now you have homosexual families, which in my opinion is oxymoronic in general, because you're depriving children.

Milo: It's a mockery.

Candace: What's also interesting about it is that a lot of people get into these situations. That's why it's been fascinating for me to know people who identify as homosexual — and all of them, the one thing that is agreed upon is that they actually don't think they were born this way. One of them has mommy issues, says his mother was bipolar and drove both him and his brother to never want to be around women again, and now they're both choosing to be gay. Another person said he had daddy issues — his daddy walked out, he wasn't around — and he sought to have that relationship with men when he got older. You could say this even for women who can understand this in another context. A lot of women who sleep with tons of guys do so because their dads weren't around. They're pursuing that paternity in a really unhealthy way. And so for you, which was it?

Milo: Well, I always knew that it was sick and wrong for two men to raise a baby, and I never wanted to have any part of that. And I feel some responsibility for elevating what you might call "out and proud" homosexuality into an acceptable position in right-wing politics in America. I feel a lot of things about that, about my personal responsibility for that. I regret it very deeply. Because although I thought at the time I was being sufficiently tongue-in-cheek and subtle that people would get the nuances, they did not. And although I said in every speech I ever gave, "If I had a button I could push to make me straight, I would" — that too of course got lost.

And so there was a moment when it looked like it might be a good idea if people who had this terrible affliction at least lived as close to wholesome lives as possible. Sounds sensible, right? So we go from being the taboo-breaking, drug-taking, promiscuous subculture to people living about as good as you can, despite the fact that your life revolves around a dysfunction or a horror like that — at least you don't need to throw the rest of your life away. You could at least be healthy. And it seemed for a while as though that was good. Homosexuals began to vote right-wing. They still do. And so we thought for a while, this is going all right. We've got all the white gays voting for the conservatives or the Republican Party. They're getting into all kinds of rows with their intersectional whatever. This is good. They're the ones who want to anyway. The white gays are the good ones out of the LGBT circus, and they ended up voting on the basis of taxes instead of social issues. All good things.

But what I didn't foresee, which I suppose I should have, is that three-fifths of a parody is not enough. And when you have this mockery of the holy sacrament — which is ultimately what it is, two men living together and committing a sin that is one of the sins that cries out to heaven for vengeance — it is one of the things that St. Katherine of Siena, I think, says: the demons that cause homosexual acts, once they've prompted that in men, don't stick around to watch because it's too disgusting. Because they used to be angels, and in their angelic rational nature, they can't see something so gross. So they don't stick around to see the sin that they prompted. This is the level of seriousness with which the Church takes it.

So it was probably foreseeable that a simulacrum of married life was going to lead to something awful, and it did. It has led to the widespread abuse of not just children but babies. We see stories now of babies being sexually violated by gay couples. The couple whom Ruth Bader Ginsburg married got busted for child pornography sometime later.

Candace: Even the Matthew Shepard thing — the Laramie Project. I did not learn this. My brain basically broke because it was part of the propaganda. Matthew Shepard was murdered, they said, because he was gay and was tied to a fence in Wyoming. And this became part of my high school indoctrination about why it was so important to let people just be gay — look what happened to Matthew Shepard. And that was a total manufactured thing. Actually, he was drug-addicted. The person who killed him was somebody he knew and had had a homosexual relationship with. And they ran with this in order to get laws passed.

Milo: Has there ever really been a hate crime? I mean, definitely 300 years ago there were terrible atrocities happening across racial lines because there was an understanding that people weren't people. But has somebody pursued a homosexual across a field, tied him up, and beat him? No. Come on. These things — but they wanted us to believe that. And they taught us this in school. And there are still people watching right now who do not realize that the entire Matthew Shepard narrative is one big myth.

But look at the way that progressives will rewrite their own founding mythology to suit the mores of the day. You think they're not worried about lying to you? It is now accepted wisdom among the wokest of the gay community that it was trans people who won gay rights at Stonewall, who marched. It wasn't — there were no trans people there. It was white gays. The white gays do all the interesting stuff. They're all the fashion designers, blah blah blah. But because white gays have fallen out of fashion with the intersectional crowd, they've just completely rewritten who it was that participated in this so-called civil rights event in history. They completely rewrite their own mythology with no compunction whatsoever.

And I think we're now seeing — we did a show not long ago about one particular country that is guilty of just the most extraordinary machine gun of scoops and lies and misrepresentations, just hoping that enough of it sticks. It has become now the norm. Our society functions not on the truth but primarily on lies. Most of the things that are said in American public life — on television, in newspapers, in the academy — are not true. And this is very dangerous because people with conditions or disorders, where they're trying to figure out what's real, they have no hope in a society like this.

I think we live in America in a state now of epistemological crisis, where it is no longer possible for a regular person with access to regular things to even figure out how they would find out if something they heard on TV was true. If a politician tells you this bill is bad because it's going to increase the deficit to a point where the country will not recover financially, and you're like, well, I don't think money is real, but can't they just — even if you took all the premises, there's no way to even find out. There's no way for somebody to go and find out: is that true? Who is telling me the truth out of the Republicans and Democrats, or out of the neocons and the MAGA people? What should be a black-and-white math problem — there's no way to know. And so we're hopeless on things like sexuality that are not concrete, not tangible.

Hollywood, Freemasonry, and the Deliberate Introduction of Homosexual Culture

Candace: No, it's really interesting. Even if you examine them, there are all of these founding myths. For BLM, they needed to have the George Floyd thing to really set fire to everything. Or actually, before George Floyd, what happened — who was it? Trayvon Martin, with the Skittles. There are all of these founding myths, and what they do is get the media to spread it like fire, and before people even know what the truth is, everybody is emotionally invested in the lies. And that's how they do it. They have to tell you a story that's borderline medieval. He was chained to a fence just for being gay. George Floyd did nothing wrong — they just saw a Black guy and said let's choke him out for nine minutes. And nobody just goes, wait a second, I've lived in America a very long time and I've never seen or heard this thing happen. But the media is so good at psychologically convincing people that no, this is exactly how it happened.

Milo: My British is going to come out now, but I think this is how this country was founded — on a trumped-up, Reddit libertarian hissy fit that was not really all it was cracked up to be, but was the basis for a destructive and self-harming founding mythology of a country that ripped out the natural system of government that is supposed to obtain over men on earth and pulled God out of the system too. Is this my British coming out?

Candace: No, it's — I'm actually going to say there is something a little similar about the way this country was founded to what you're talking about, which might suggest why this country is so vulnerable and so susceptible to precisely this kind of psychological and political warfare. Because it is how the nation knows itself — how it was born — in a fit of injustice that was corrected by a few brave men taking a stand. That's the whole story of America.

So I'm interested now, because this is going to bring us right into the occult and what they actually believe. You're right — the founding of America is an absolute myth. I'm reading a book called The Secret Founding of America, and it's basically just blowing my mind and telling me that everything you think you know is completely false. But when I was in study with some priests in England, they sort of pushed me — they said everything that you Americans think you know is so foolish. America was obviously founded by Freemasons. And now I'm really understanding: yes, you had these Freemason lodges that came over — the Scottish Rite, Ben B'rith — and they were the reason behind the Civil War. They were literally fighting for control of America. And the way that they do this is very similar to what we're seeing today. There is this kind of mainstreamed lie.

If you ask Americans, oh, it was just the tea tax was too high and this is what we did — we started throwing it out in the harbor and we said we're ready to go to war. Now that I say it, it sounds so stupid.

Milo: Sounds kind of dumb, doesn't it? Basically, like, I know it was a couple hundred years ago, but people were people. How much does this tea cost? Oh no, Paul Revere, the British are coming. It's actually something childish. And it's implausible. It is fake and gay. Now that I'm getting into the Freemason thing — is it any wonder that a country founded on a fake and gay mythology would have as its primary export, just a couple hundred years later, sodomy as a condition of foreign aid? Is it so surprising?

Candace: Not to me. No, it's not. But getting into the homosexuality and looking into B'nai B'rith — this was actually one of the Masonic lodges that Sigmund Freud was a part of. And that's why it made me think about this, because they were definitely very involved in what was happening in the South. They're very involved in what's happening today. And then you have the ADL — the ADL that we have today. What do they do? They mainstream lies. They call themselves anti-defamation. But what are they doing? They're actually defaming people.

Milo: They accuse people — which is a satanic inversion of the language, precisely as is used in their warfare. They tell you who they are in the name. And so they are constantly accusing people of exactly what it is that they are. They hate Christians. I would argue that they hate the nuclear family, because that comes with everything that comes down right from Christendom — the nuclear family, the idea of a functional family. And when you look at the things that they're pushing in our society, it's constantly an attack on the family unit.

Let's think about it in terms of Catholic theology — the transcendentals. These are those qualities of reality that all people are drawn to, that give us a little taste of what our Lord may be like. Typically there are four of them: beauty, truth, goodness, and unity. So you often hear religious people talking about the good, the beautiful, and the true. Those are the things that the ADL wages war against, along with all of the other bodies of a similar kind. They will celebrate the ugliest statues possible. They will spread as many lies as possible. They will propagate and seek to enshrine evil and wretched things — Planned Parenthood, whatever. And of course they create disharmony and disunity and break people apart.

I always find it very helpful to think about the way that the enemy has fought over the last hundred years in this country in terms of those transcendentals, because when you understand that, it sort of checks off all the fronts they've been fighting on. They've been winning even if we haven't. America didn't — because it's Protestant — didn't keep sight of this. But the bad guys knew exactly what they were doing, because they know what Catholics know, which is — in just the same way that Satanists know what Catholics know, they just do something different — that those things tend to go together. And if you make a society that is beautiful and that tells the truth, it's likely also to be good. And if you have somebody who always tells the truth and has good morals, they're probably going to express those things in beautiful language. These things somehow have a relationship together because they're all qualities of God, but also because they seem somehow to lead to one another.

Many people come to the faith, especially the Catholic faith, through art, through architecture, through beauty, because they see something in it. They feel something kind of humming behind it. And that humming is God. And eventually it tumbles into the good and the true things they find out about God later — they're drawn in by something objectively, independently, eternally beautiful about something they have seen, or a melody they have heard, or all of those things, the great richness of the Western whatever.

By unpicking the mutually reinforcing structure that used to fuel our culture and hold us all together — beauty, truth, goodness, and unity — these things that we all reflexively thought we were of course searching for and pointing towards — by making the world ugly, putting fat girls on the magazines, making the statues horrendous — Lena Dunham, what did I do? She's come back bigger than ever. In an age of Ozempic, it takes some determination to be that fat. But it was so intentional for her to introduce into the culture, get this deal with HBO, it's going to be the greatest show ever, and then they put her on every magazine cover. Oh, it's so brave. It's so beautiful.

And there is an element of this I really want to underscore: the lie, them trying to sell it to us, and then saying there's something wrong with you if you recoil when you see Lena Dunham naked. Of course there's such a thing as objective beauty. They're trying to teach us that beauty is subjective. And there's something about that perspective that is fundamentally satanic and demonic and backwards. It's like, no, stop trying to convince me that this really ugly modern contraption you're calling a building is just as beautiful as when I step into a Catholic cathedral.

The Russians understand this. When you hear KGB guys talking about demoralization of a population, they're saying: they understand that if you make people say things they know aren't true, and support things they know are bad, and admire or perform admiration towards things they find ugly, they're going to get depressed. When you say something that you know to be untrue, it does something to your spirit. You know that's not true. Why are you saying that?

When the Berlin Wall fell, everybody was suddenly Western. It was because everybody had been lying about what they really believed. Sociologists referred to it as preference falsification — all of society basically had this incredibly powerful social pressure to say they believed and supported this, when in reality they were secretly trying to listen to the radio from over there. So when there's the opportunity, everybody suddenly changes all at once. And we just saw that again with woke, with trans, with Trump coming in — this extraordinary moment. The View was reportedly canceled. Did you see that today?

Candace: No. Were they actually canceled?

Milo: I don't think that's right. Well, I like to believe it, and I'm never going to watch it again, so I'm going to believe that it was canceled today. But it's coming off the back of Colbert, and these things are crumbling because the artifice of lies is crumbling, because the infrastructure that requires the wickedness is no longer there. And so we don't need ugly, untalented, falsely propped-up people on television anymore. And they're going to have to go rebuild and do something else.

Mark, do you mind looking up whether the View was canceled today? I actually haven't — no, the — oh, "Rosie O'Donnell fears the View will be cancelled for not aligning." So you've ruined my day. I was hoping the View would be cancelled while Megan McCain was on it so that she would always think it was her. I'm choosing to believe that it was canceled.

But they are kind of — forgetting about the View — we are seeing that crumbling. A lot of it is crumbling. Hollywood's influence. Howard Stern's contract was canceled. And these are things that are in themselves lies, because they are contracts that are not profitable but are propped up by other things. They are lies in themselves.

The Media Landscape, Barry Weiss, and Propaganda Infrastructure

Candace: We've got to talk about this because I literally covered this on my show last week. Bari Weiss — this is the greatest example of this. The Free Press. They are trying to convince us Bari Weiss is worth a quarter of a billion dollars. They have no views on YouTube. There's a Jewish word for saying that your publication, the Free Press, is worth $250 million. It's called chutzpah. But everyone is actually investing — every billionaire is investing in her. So let's actually think through this. What are they doing? It is so obvious that this publication, if we actually lived in a free market society, would be under.

Milo: Technically speaking, things are worth what somebody is willing to pay for them under capitalism. A company's valuation is determined by the price at which people are willing to buy in — to exchange capital for slices of the company. And the ratio at which they do that determines what the whole thing is worth. But it has been a very long time since people invested in companies solely for profitable returns. We now live in a late-stage, monopolistic, decadent capitalist world in which everything is one of the same five corporations. So it doesn't matter, and it never will, that that company isn't worth a tenth or a hundredth of what they say, because a multinational conglomerate that doesn't care will buy it at that valuation anyway and continue to run it at a loss if they choose to, because it has cultural value.

Well, it doesn't have any cultural value. No one's listening to Bari Weiss. So what are they doing? What they're doing is building the propaganda machinery of tomorrow. Because the entire edifice of the prestige media has been so badly damaged and discredited by the last ten years — by themselves, they did it themselves — that there is no publication out there that still commands the respect and trust of the public. Nothing. None of them. And the ones that do have the most confidence of the public, we just defunded NPR and whatnot, which were coasting on a kind of authoritative tone to bamboozle people into thinking they were telling the truth.

So we have an enormous vacuum in the media landscape that I think they're going to fill by overvaluing and then very quickly — in the same way that hedge funds will buy, you remember All Saints, that clothing store? There was one in Spitalfields in London and one somewhere else, and then suddenly they were in every town. It's the Blackstone thing. So they buy this and they're going to just federate it out. Before you know it, there will be 5,000 Free Press journalists.

Candace: I totally agree with you. What are they really? They're not journalists. They are instruments of propaganda.

Milo: Orwell didn't foresee this, but for that sick mix of state and corrupt capitalism — the revolving door between big pharma, big oil, the military-industrial complex, and the government — all of it together. And so those people require a complex, large, and powerful propaganda system in order to get away with stuff like selling people poison and telling them it's medicine. And to do that, they need people that the public will more or less trust.

So my read on Bari Weiss is that she is the most malleable, controllable, anodyne, empty-headed, willing-to-do-say-and-be-anything person they could find, and therefore is perfect to head up an organization that will be not a journalistic institution as we have known them, but rather a room of broadcasters for rent, depending on who that week needs to persuade the American public of some lies — whether it is the Israel lobby or big pharma.

Gay Men as Media Figureheads and the Gaytriarchy

Candace: So here's a question for you. A lot of people who are being propped up, a lot of people who have power — especially in the media — are in fact gay. They're homosexuals. Bari Weiss was married to a man, but now she's married to a woman and having children.

Milo: Lesbians aren't real.

Candace: Well, tell that to Bari Weiss. But thinking about a lot of people that are empowered — especially her valuation — maybe that's why they chose her.

Milo: A woman who believes that she's sexually attracted to another woman can believe anything. I mean, once you convince yourself, if you're a woman, that you are sexually attracted to another woman — even lesbians don't keep it up more than six months after they get married. It's called lesbian bed death. They stop having sex completely and they just turn into sort of miserable old knitters. And then of course the domestic violence starts spooling up, because the pretty one gets a boyfriend on the side and the big ugly one beats the crap out of her twice a week. Because it is what a dysfunctional, disordered arrangement — guaranteed by virtue of its cacophony of mislunging, flailing, mispunching intentions — to produce horrors.

Candace: I think even like — okay, so another person in media, like you had Don Lemon — why, based on what we've discussed so far, would you choose gay men to be the front men for the real powerful people whose names you'll never learn?

Milo: Because they're so used to playing characters already. They'll do whatever you want. They'll say whatever you want. They will actually inhabit the role. They will believe whatever they need to, and they will be your endlessly and infinitely malleable propagandists and figureheads. Because they are so used already to stitching together things on the fly and saying things they don't believe and having no idea what the real truth is. And isn't that just what's happened to the press? It's become homosexualized. It's splintered. And we have chunks of things that kind of sort of work, but there's nothing at the heart of it. It doesn't know what it's for. It's forgotten its role as the fourth estate. Why? Because it is full of gay people doing PR.

Candace: So here's a question for you. How does the government win by trying to indoctrinate everybody into an increasingly more homosexual culture?

Milo: Because broken, damaged people are far more compliant — they're needier and they're weaker. People don't understand why big companies love diversity. They're like, well, wouldn't that just make you less efficient? No, no. It's because diverse workforces don't unionize. Amazon loves diversity because if you have an Italian-American, a Mexican, a Guatemalan, and nobody knows what she is, they won't get together outside of work and talk about what the boss is doing. They won't have the same priorities. They won't have the same way of doing things. They probably won't even talk at work. They'll find the other Mexican or they'll find the other whatever, or they'll just sort of do their job and go home. And this completely divided, fractured, dysfunctional workforce doesn't represent anything like the old factories or workplaces of the past, where people were invested in each other's careers and kids and took things to the office. You can't imagine that happening in an Amazon warehouse. Because these workforces are full of people so utterly different from one another who have nothing in common and don't really know how to communicate with one another. Those workforces are neutralized in terms of political dissent or collective bargaining. Amazon will never have to worry about their workers all going out on strike one day because the wages are too low.

In the same way, the government — that is intricately involved in the sale and regulation and in some cases punishment of a variety of different poisons and drugs — the more fractured and the more dumb and dependent the population is, the more they will need to play ball so that they get their Adderall, so that they get their paycheck, so they don't fall behind with their compound interest payments for the television that they don't own. With everybody living paycheck to paycheck, surrounded by these addictions and dependencies from their brokenness, from their disorder, from their misery, from their unhappiness — these cushions they use, these medications or whatever they use to fix their mood from one day to the next — they need that stuff. And it takes that person completely out of the running for social dissent. That person can't even take a month off work, let alone go and protest what the government's doing.

And so they become, as we now have in America, miserable, demoralized wage slaves, living in a prison of compound interest debt, who live lives they never wanted and wouldn't choose, but which were sort of provided for them as an aspirational lifestyle goal by the same press.

The Disposable Built Environment and the Loss of Ancestral Culture

I live in a house — a friend of mine owns this house. It is a 1920s travertine marble and concrete mansion, huge whacking great thing on top of a hill. And it is the only house I've ever been in in America that feels solid, like it might be here in 50 years. Everything else in America — you must notice this, having been to Europe so much now with your husband — the architecture just feels like things are going to last, and you're not wrong. You're not imagining it.

I always tell this story and people get it: my mother had a corkscrew that she bought in Paris when I was a baby, which she still had when I was 18. And I know that because I stole it. It worked fine. And we're Brits, so we were drinkers — she was using that thing every day and it lasted. You can't buy one that lasts a year in America. You're lucky if you can find one that lasts six months. Everything about the built environment is becoming disposable, dispensable, fragile. The walls are getting thinner so you can hear the people next to you. And you know, you might have somehow managed to beat the economics of 2025 and buy yourself a house, but that house is falling apart the moment it's finished. Things are peeling. The workmanship is terrible. The materials are terrible. Everything is done in a slipshod fashion. And it makes people terrified of taking risks, because so much about their life is uncertain or painful or uncontrollable or chaotic already.

Candace: Americans sort of have been taught to embrace this new culture — stainless steel, everything so clinical — but it's sold as a signifier of wealth, when anybody from a truly wealthy background in Europe will tell you that is a sign of poverty, of only being able to afford something that doesn't last.

Milo: When Black Americans were first emancipated and they were building these new lives, Black consumers in America in the 1950s and '60s went into department stores and bought the best that they could afford — the best brands, the best quality brands — because they knew it had to last, because they were building a life that had a future. They were looking ahead to their children having a destiny in America, and they wanted to build something real and something with foundation. You hear a lot of Black grandmas these days say "that's your foundation" — it's a big word that you hear maybe two generations up in Black America. The consumers in the 1950s, if you worked in a department store, you would know: if a Black couple came in, she wanted not the most ostentatious one, but the very best quality brand — better than the white people would buy — and she was going to look after it, take care of it, have it for 20 years. That's what you do when you have an investment in the future. That's what you do when you have hope for the future. That's what you do when you're building something that will be a legacy for generations to come.

What we have now — especially in white working-class America, where the raison d'être of the town has gone, as well as everything falling to pieces, but really just in the country generally — is this flattening and cheapening of all our life through this fake "oh, wealthy people just throw it away when they're done with it" wealth mythology that Americans have been sold. Like, if you can just buy another one, that means you're doing well, right? And it doesn't matter that it broke.

I was looking at those litter robots — you know, the automated litter boxes — and the leader in the market, which costs $700, and they've been making these things since 1990, killed two cats three months ago. They still haven't got it right. They still don't make it right. Either take it off the market or don't build cheap. And the reason is that it was built so cheaply that the magnets kind of fell over and trapped and killed. Even things that are designed to go in your home for the benefit of living creatures are made with such contempt and carelessness, and yet priced so astronomically, as to make everyone crazy. And it has made everyone crazy.

Candace: And even in regards to food — this idea of, well, we can feed more people. What are you feeding them? You're feeding them crap. Nothing is ancestral anymore. That's what I always say about America. When you say ancestral, I mean even people's families — people don't know where they come from anymore. So there's nothing that has any substance. There's nothing that has that foundation.

Can't imagine the world before they were born. And they're trying to speed that up. And that is the danger that I see in AI. It's the reason why, while everyone else is embracing this — people were giving Elon Musk a heroes' welcome when he joined the administration — I'm sitting here going, this is terrible. This is not a good idea. He actually believes in transhumanism.

Milo: His grandfather was part of this sort of transhumanist movement in Canada. This is difficult for me because I'm going blind and I have about five or six years of vision left. And so his chip is probably the only thing that holds any hope of me being able to make my own way. But you don't ever give the government access to your brain. The problem is somebody could put me in pastels without me knowing. So you have some way to go in my recovery.

But his thing — I saw a woman writing with it on the screen and I was like, oh, that's like Christ in the desert, kind of like a glass of water kind of territory. It's like, oh, I must have it. Really mesmerizing, alluring, kind of sickening — that's how they get you.

Candace: Yes. Of course. I was amused to see that the latest iteration of self-driving cars is consistently turning people straight into oncoming traffic. It's like, yeah, even the cars want to kill themselves. But it's like this is the whole thing — they want to control every aspect of your life including your brain. So it's not enough to just fill your mind with propaganda and lies every single day. Now they're like, actually, open up your mind.

The foundation of that transhumanist thought was the idea that they don't actually believe in democracy — too many people are stupid. We are the smart people. Allow us to rule the world. Elon Musk's grandfather in Canada was part of the technocratic movement. They believed in technocracy.

Milo: This is my problem with America. When you rip out God and the King, you can't replace it with the stars and stripes and a couple of slogans. You can't just say, "Oh, freedom, Fourth of July," and think that an entire intricate system of human governance and flourishing and culture and faith — all leading, tending up toward that capstone, on earth as it is in heaven, an earthly reflection of the heavenly order, the aristocracy and the king, the angels and our Lord — you can't rip that out of the heart of the system and expect everything to be okay. Because you don't just get rid of it. You make room for something worse to move in.

Hollywood became the king and the queen. The Beyoncés, the Jay-Zs. You see people worshiping Hollywood. And the problem is that if you have a bad king, you can kill him. You can assassinate him. When there's a crazy, cruel, terrible king who's doing absolutely insane things, somebody kills him eventually. But if you don't know the names of the people who rule over you because they're all hiding behind the rippling stars and stripes — making a fortune from you, poisoning you, lying to you, experimenting on you, mutilating your children or convincing you to do it — that's when the Russians said we'll know that America's conquered when people will see their chains, love them, and ask for more. And don't we live in that situation now, where we've got parents asking doctors to mutilate their own kids just to relieve their own consciences?

1776 does not make America free of monarchy. It just means you don't know who's in charge and you'll never be able to hold them accountable.

Candace: Who do you think is in charge?

Milo: Good question. It seems obvious to me from everything we know about empires and long-lasting cultures — how and when they fall, how and when they do it, the characteristics that it has — I think we can see hints about the perpetual elite class that seems to kind of exist throughout. Because those are the excesses that the elites embody that they can do, but when it permeates down to the rest of society, things fall apart. At the end of Rome, you have the Visigoths sacking the city and the senators are not doing what they're supposed to do. They're not in the Senate. They're out with child prostitutes or at gay orgies or whatever.

I think Camille Paglia — who we're not supposed to quote anymore because people keep finding things about man-boy love in her books, but other than that she's pretty good on most subjects — she talks about the things that civilizations have in common just before the fall. Every single one of them has a trans craze. All of them. Every single great empire, every single great culture that has ever existed in the history of human civilization has had some kind of gender-queer or male-female sex confusion right before the end.

Sigmund Freud, the Kabbalah, and the Cultural Import of Homosexuality

Candace: Well, this is why I've been quite interested in what the theology is that's guiding this, because I think these people keep surviving — they're at the top, and then they kind of reinvent themselves and get to the top again. And America is getting very close. The more that I examine — getting back to Sigmund Freud and Hollywood — what was super interesting to me is to learn that the guiding theology seems to be the Kabbalah. When you think about what the Kabbalists believe — and part of it is oral tradition, so we'll never really know what they believe — Sigmund Freud was a Kabbalist, at least if David Bakan and other historians are to be believed. There is this combination of a man becoming the woman.

And in Hollywood Babylon, it talks about how we imported — which is where Sigmund Freud was living and working in Vienna — this old Vienna culture literally came over. They were bringing over these literal pedophiles. And Marlene Dietrich — trying to tell women in America, which they did successfully, you should be wearing pantsuits — making these people seem iconic. Like, oh my gosh, she's blending.

Milo: Don't comfort Marlene Dietrich. That's going to make me very sad.

Candace: No, she was one of them. They brought her over. They found her in — I'm trying to —

Milo: You have to. She's part of this. You don't know what it took for me to let go of dinosaurs. It took me years to let go of dinosaurs. Dinosaurs is hard for guys. Jurassic Park is like — aside from getting raped, it is the seminal moment of my childhood. Going to see Jurassic Park in the movies for the first time. I watched that movie 500 times. I'm not exaggerating. Dinosaurs — you just love them so much. You like the idea of them. I know that movie backwards. I know every line of dialogue.

Do you remember where she says, "This is a Unix system. I know this"? Lex, the computer geek girl who figures out how to lock the doors when the velociraptors are hunting them in the visitor center right towards the end — I bought a computer like that and taught myself. It was such a penetrating thing for me. Jurassic Park and dinosaurs — I wanted to use the same computer they had in the movie. And I still love it and I still have a soft spot. And to let go of dinosaurs is very difficult. I'm not quite ready for Marlene.

Candace: You need to be ready for that, because I'm telling you she was imported over here by a bunch of German pedophiles for a reason. And then when you look at the pictures of her with Pierre Bergé, Yves Saint Laurent, Pierre Bergé — all of these people who are interested in bending the gender, and fashion, the whole fashion — Balenciaga, the kids. Now that I'm getting into the culture of Brigitte and who Brigitte was friends with, and all of them just happened to have a thing for kids. About French designers — I've been very reassured by my instincts to discover that when I return to my wardrobe, it is Dolce & Gabbana, Versace, Laura Piana. It's all Italian.

Milo: They have different problems. But the French designers all had — they liked little boys, harems of catamites, and they absolutely loved Marlene Dietrich. Although I don't think Karl Lagerfeld did, actually. I think Karl Lagerfeld was gay, but I don't think he was into it. I think he was one of the few that wasn't. And the way that I know that is because he was very unrepentantly and joyfully racist and sexist and unpolitically correct. He didn't seem to be part of the cult of conformity. He didn't have anything in common with the other —

Candace: I need to believe this. Okay. I will say this — he has not yet come up in my research. So there's that.

Milo: I'll allow Karl Lagerfeld to be your dinosaur.

Candace: We mentioned on the last show that radical skepticism is the only rational position in a world like ours. But I am a romantic with a capital R. And I can't go on with everything taken. I must have —

Milo: Well, Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Bergé were into defecation during sex, so that's why they — yeah, them and every Saudi. If you've ever seen anyone on Instagram that's kind of impossibly beautiful and usually mostly unclothed, that's a prostitute. They are escorts. And those people go to Dubai a couple of times a year to have the most extraordinarily depraved things done to them in exchange for — this is what these fashion designers were into.

And so this is — as I'm researching, and sadly this came up when I was learning about Emmanuel Macron — it is quite stunning. And I bring this up only to really underscore that our entire society, Hollywood, was shaped. We were literally all being unwittingly indoctrinated into a culture of homosexuality, transgenderism — the belief of the male and the female coming together.

Candace: For me, because if you lose France, you lose Chanel and Dior, and those are girl brands. Whereas Italy — it would be devastating to lose Italian shoes. It's worse for women to lose France because France is the pinnacle of female fashion. It's the home of haute couture. You want one of those extraordinarily expensive dresses cut just for you.

Milo: You should read what they were doing — they thought it was inspiring them to be with these young women. I can imagine. I was gay for long enough. I can imagine. And this sadistic treatment of women — putting them, you know, the whole model culture and fashion, which sometimes is directed at the beautiful and sensual and pleasing, but more often these days is a kind of ugly humiliation and debasement. The things that — oh no, we've got to give up Tyra Banks as well, because she's part of this. This is the entire fashion industry.

Candace: I can't handle this much truth.

Milo: You know, we look at it now and we're like, okay, yeah, everybody in the fashion industry is gay. But the humiliation that they put women through, the cruelty they put the women through in fashion — the gay men. Why? Because they're visiting the — they know that their moms did it to them.

Candace: Oh, I have a question. Something that I have noticed: gay men hate women. Too many of them. Not all of them, obviously. But there is a certain level of vitriol that is reserved for women. Where does that come from?

Milo: They lash out at other women because they can't lash out at their mothers who did it to them. I have it. I'm not proud of it. Sometimes I am because it's funny, and then I have to kind of catch myself. Just the other day I took more pleasure than I should — more pleasure certainly than was charitable — in sharing the sexual history and peccadillos of some Turning Point influencer. And I found myself posting a picture of a man she had public sex with at a TPUSA party, saying — I really shouldn't post this, she is getting married in 11 days. In retrospect, yes, it is still funny, and you could make a case that it's justified, but I didn't do it because I wanted to improve the moral standing of women. I did it because it was mean.

But why do gay men have that meanness? It's because there is a wound that will never heal at the heart of every gay person, made by their mothers.

The Roots of Homosexuality: Mothers, Fathers, and Family Structure

There's a higher self-reported incidence of homosexuality among Black and Jewish Americans. You guess why?

Candace: Well, I've definitely noticed a high incidence of gay people who are Jewish and Black. Black people, I would imagine, because of prison.

Milo: Well, yes — fatherlessness. So if you have no male role models, that's bad enough, but that's not what Black kids experience. Black kids experience a steady drip feed of poison from their own mothers about the male role models they should have had, who made them. And eventually the mothers will start visiting this stuff on the sons when the sons become sufficiently like their dad — when they start having sex, when they start getting girlfriends, mom starts treating the son the same way.

But then what about Jewish people? Because their families are together. What is it?

Think about the Jewish marriages that you know. Think about the couples. You have almost exclusively larger-than-life, raucous women with nebbishy, scholarly, quiet men who take almost no interest in the raising of the children. And the women who are so unbearably exhaustingly exasperating that the husbands just let them make all the decisions about how the house goes. I like to compare Jewish marriages to lion taming. You have this little guy, and unlike female suffrage in London, where it's the men granting it to the women who are asking for it — it was Jewish women who appointed themselves rabbis, who said my husband's an idiot, I could be a rabbi. The Jewish women were behind the feminist movement in America. They were behind the revolution in Russia.

So overbearing mothers and absent, inadequate, or neglectful fathers — that's a recipe for homosexuality, just as much as some other more physically or psychologically traumatic events might be. That particular combination — the overbearing, micromanaging mother who thinks she knows best but does not know what a boy needs, and the father who's useless or absent, or in my case a killer — that's how you make gays.

Boys especially need a father or some kind of male role model. Women cannot raise boys by themselves. They don't know what men need to form platonic relationships with other men, because those moms never have themselves. They've only ever bounced from unsatisfactory boyfriend to unsatisfactory boyfriend, and in most cases don't have a good relationship with their own brothers and fathers.

Candace: It's actually so interesting. I think the biggest question you can ask anyone is what their relationship is like with their mother and their father. And this is the reason why they're attacking the family — because when you come from a nuclear family, a healthy family dynamic, a mother and a father, you're invulnerable to 90% of the warfare they're trying to wage. They want to enslave us. So the easiest way to enslave any people is to destroy their families.

Think about the Catholic families who aren't converts but have been going to the parish for like 20 years. How unreachable they are by Lizzo, or campus rape culture, or transgender whatever. If they were even to hear of such things, which of course they do from time to time, they would regard it with a mixture of pity, horror, and amusement. They're completely immunized against it because they have their needs met by an authentic relationship with our Lord and each other, a healthy family. Because they have fewer dysfunctions, fewer diseases, fewer mental illnesses.

Milo: Of course, the vast majority of mental illness is just guilt from sin. They have less of that because they're going to confession every — they don't need the beast system. They don't need the drugs. They don't need to be lied to. They don't need the mood fixes. They don't need a car that's not even nice but just expensive-looking and expensive and flimsy and on credit.

Those Catholic families where everybody's so well-behaved — you know, in my brain, of course, it gets much worse than that. The most depraved thing I can think of pops into my head and I just have to leave. But they're not tempted at all. They always drive hoopties, you know, because that's all you need. It's like, who cares? Those people who have a strong family and God — they don't need anything that the devil is selling.

Candace: So true. You know, it's funny — going back to what you were saying about the transcendentals. I think about this even in regards to music. I can't listen to the music that I used to listen to. Suddenly the cursing sounds very harsh to me.

Milo: What have you gone off? What did you used to like and don't now?

Candace: Well, I used to be able to listen to — I still have it on my phone, but — a lot of swearing, a lot of music. I grew up listening to Lauryn Hill and Whitney Houston. I was respectable. But I used to be able to listen to more rap music when I got into college. Even if I go back and listen to Christina Aguilera — like a girl, normal. But there's something off about her now, isn't there? When you go back and listen — this is so sexual, and she was 17 years old. "I'm a genie in a bottle, you gotta rub me the right way." And when you see the "Dirrty" video, you realize that this is a girl who has been wrecked by the entertainment industry, and they then use her damage to sell sex in a different way. Ariana Grande — "I bend all night, I bend all day." And when you actually — it takes very little. When you begin abstaining, it isn't unlike a recovery in that your ears repair, your brain repairs.

Milo: And then — if you want, people listening at home, challenge yourself to stop listening to maybe all music for, let's call it a month, and then go back and try to listen to something with expletives. You suddenly go — and you know why? It's Aristotle: habits become character. We're creatures of routine and habit. That's why we have to do the Rosary, why we have to go to Mass on Sundays. It's why church is a regular commitment and not a one-off. It's why we're encouraged to do these rituals. It's why Catholicism is so good for drug addicts snapping out of it — because you can replace the bad rituals of the drugs and sex with the wholesome rituals of things like the Rosary, the Angelus, whatever.

We are creatures of habit. Indeed, half the species are creatures of a literal cycle — a repeating period of time that dictates everything about all of our lives, but is also the primary way in which we measure time: the seasons, the months. Because of the natural cycle of womanhood, women find it especially easy to follow. So it's always women that you will find at church doing the Rosary every day at the same time. Men find it difficult to be consistent about that sometimes because they're out here doing this, that, and whatever.

So we can make ourselves — you can get better. What have you been drawn to that you didn't used to listen to, that you do now? And then I'm going to tell you a crazy story about what happened to me when I stopped being gay.

Candace: First and foremost, I would say I did not — when we first got married, my husband loves the chanting, the Gregorian chant.

Milo: It's difficult, isn't it? It's a lot to take in. The Anglican tradition is so much more — you know, the royal wedding music, all the grand, wonderful pomp and ceremony — that is so much easier to listen to than — look, a lot of Catholics have trouble with Gregorian chant. For me, I still find it more of a meditative aid than a pleasure I seek out.

Candace: But I think one of the things that I've noticed is — which was what Bishop Barron wrote in his book, which I think was actually a major contributor to me wanting to be Catholic — was when he said that anything that becomes broken and becomes away from being whole gets closer to the devil. So if you start to break down a family, if you start to break down music, if you take anything and you start to fracture it, the more fractured it becomes, the closer it becomes to the devil. Syncopation. Holy is also W-H-O-L-E-Y — it can be holy or wholly. But you want something to be whole. And what the devil is constantly trying to do is to fracture things — whether it's to fracture the family.

Milo: Yes. Well, I now think of these two terms not unlike each other. When I think of holy and I think of wholly — yes, I think that's correct, because you want the family unit to be together. You want the church to be together. Even if you've got Protestantism — what is it? It's the constant breaking down. This was the church, now we're this, and then they break from them, and then they break from them. The greatest sin you can commit, aside from suicide perhaps, is schism — to break.

The way that I think about it — and I think we're saying the same thing — is that the natural law that underpins our religious injunctions is that things are correct when everything is performing the function for which it was intended. Everything in its right place. And so when things are lifted out from or broken apart from their natural habitat and their natural function, they set off chain reactions of things going wrong. Homosexuality being an example. But also, you know, Christians will say let one sin and the others will follow. They're describing the runaway effects of breaking a bit off. And that's exactly what happens to gay personalities in a psychiatric sense, and it's what happens to families if the government can do it.

Some of the sickest and most depraved things that the government does are things that most viewers of your program probably won't know about and people like us will never encounter directly in our lives — the ways in which the government treats people when they are down on their luck and trying to rebuild some semblance of a family unit. The financial penalties and the threat of homelessness that is dangled over the heads of single mothers should they make the mistake of getting a boyfriend who could be a dad to their child, who could be a husband for them. There are so many people in this situation where if you're a single mom and you have a kid, and there's suddenly a live-in man — if you have a boyfriend around too much, you could lose your social housing and you could lose some or part of your welfare. The perverse incentives that the system has set up for the only possible reason to keep those people exactly where they are.

Candace: Exactly. To enslave people. The Great Society — exactly where they are, which is exactly what it was. They mainstreamed welfare by saying to women, hey, it's a negative incentive — don't marry the father. They actually used to send people around to examine the homes to make sure there was no man living there, to make sure that there was a single woman.

Milo: It still happens. Not — I've acquired through my former relationship some cousins in Philly who live much closer to that kind of life than I do, and it still happens. And people live in fear of improving their lot, of making wholesome, good choices designed to make their lives and their kids' lives healthier, wealthier, happier, more successful, because they're afraid that they won't be able to survive in the gap that the savagery of the welfare system creates. And it's all on purpose and it's all designed to keep them exactly where they are.

Single mom with a kid at home. A kid therefore being raised by harridan termagants and witches at school. And the mom is just too wrapped up in keeping the plate spinning to be able to think too much about what their child will be, what their aspirations might look like, or where the family will be in 10 years. She's exhausted. And she still doesn't make all the bill payments every month. And the kid is slowly being raised by these demons in schools with pink hair and pride flags. Told, if they're a little bit fruity, a little bit light in the loafers, sugar in the tank — that they're not gay, from which there is a possibility of recovery, but they need to have their penis chopped off. And mom is so tired and addicted to her prescription medication and so exhausted and confused and unhappy and miserable and demoralized and deflated that she goes along with it, and even maybe finds some comfort in it, because she didn't want to be the woman on the block with a gay kid.

And that is a deliberate construction of the people that we're talking about — the people behind the Anderson Coopers and the Don Lemons and the witches of The View.

Milo's Personal Testimony and Return to Faith

Candace: Do you find — I think that if you're good at writing and you're good at speaking and you understand the world the way that you understand it, and the problems that are — and to have experienced a lot of what you've experienced — to have lived that, and to have then lived a life of homosexuality, and then to say, okay, I woke up one day and I realized that I wanted to get into heaven — do you not think it's just as important, because like you said, you have a moral responsibility for the next 50 years to help other people?

Milo: That's exactly my worry. But don't you feel that — like you said — I deeply regret that I was representing this homosexual style. Why wouldn't you want to do the opposite and speak about these things and just be honest about everything that you've lived through and what you've done, so that people can learn from you? Because if you get onto a platform and say homosexuality is a life of sin, it may not have — if you're a person who's dealing with homosexuality, or you're a person who's in school and someone's telling you you are a homosexual and maybe you don't feel like you are — they may need to hear it from somebody else who's lived that way.

I will say this. I have lived a life of immense privilege, unearned genetic advantage. I've had everything very easy. And there have been a few things that have happened to me in my life that have been genuinely terrible, that most people probably wouldn't have dealt with the way I did. Maybe it's because I didn't have anything else to worry about, or maybe I've just built resilience.

Finding somebody for the first time in 35 years that you think is the first person in your life that loves you back, and that you finally don't feel so alone — and thinking, well, I might be this, but at least I'm kind of whatever — and then having to give that person up because you realize you're living a life that's simply not acceptable to God, and seeing what it does to that person's life and what it does to your life. That was the worst thing that I've ever done to another person. Leading them on is the worst thing that's ever happened to me — the worst thing I've ever done to another person.

And the worst thing about it was he knew already, because of course you do. When you care about somebody, you can see things happening. It was messing with me spiritually. He could sense that. He knew that I wasn't present in the room anymore and that I was having some kind of crisis about that part of my life. And he knew already and he'd already come to terms with it and he'd done his grieving for the relationship. So I'm there like I've just ruined this person's life, and they're being really nice to me and asking me if I'm okay, because I'm not. And so that was horrible.

And the priest thing — I said I shouldn't say it again and get cancelled for another 10 years, but I will. In common with a lot of people that this happens to, I didn't perceive it as being as bad at the time as the effect it had on me, right? It wasn't a violent, brutal situation. And I didn't know until after I got cancelled — when I had time — that I had started loving my oppressor. I didn't realize that it was responsible for so much of me that was wrong. I thought I kind of got away with it. I even sort of thought, well, I was sort of the sexual aggressor in that situation. I didn't realize what it had left me with.

And then you know, the husband, and then I have a lot of health problems now too. Going blind, and God knows what else. I joke with my spiritual director that when I get to heaven I'm going to march up to our Lord and say, "I want an apology. Say you're sorry." And he says, well, our Lord will oustretch his hands and you will see his stigmata, and you will feel profoundly ashamed for the fraction of a second before you plunge down into the lake of fire. Don't do that when you get to heaven. I'm just kidding.

But I have felt like that sometimes. I have had that difficult relationship where I'm like, haven't you done enough? Like, are we not good? And I've said to a few people recently, which always upsets them, but I mean it: I'm ready to be with Jesus. I'm tired. I'm good.

But I have a feeling — and there's a reason for this, which is a horrible, gruesome reason — that unfortunately I think he has plans for me to be here for many decades yet, doing something along the lines you suggest. When all gay sex is a humiliation, is an exercise in humiliation and self-harm — in my case, it was particularly so, wanting to be physically subjugated by a much stronger, larger man. And I settled on African-American men as being the sort of athletic, hyper-masculine thing that was doing it for me. And in the course of over 20 years of being an active homosexual — I had a lot of sex, and a lot of unprotected sex, with a lot of people from a group where half of all of them get AIDS. 50% of gay Black men get HIV. And I've done the math, and it breaks every law of maths, physics, biology, and chemistry that I don't have HIV. It is mathematically impossible that I don't have it. But I don't.

Candace: And that is a God thing.

Milo: That is a God thing. Because it would have been an easy way out. And then you're going to make it okay to be a gay Republican, which is really bad, Milo. And then you've got five long decades of making it right.

I know. I'm dragging my feet at the moment because I'm enjoying this kind of interregnum fiction of being retired, when in actual fact I know who I work for and I'm like walking like a dog all day every day. But I enjoy — I always like to make it look easy. I always try to have an air of studied nonchalance. Oh no, I'm retired. I'm retired. Sorry, you don't deserve me. I'm retired.

But I know that at some point it will have to happen.

Candace: Yeah, I think so. I think God puts people in certain paths for a reason. And I think you've lived — right now, I know he wants me to do what I'm doing now because the person that I'm working for needs me in certain ways. And I know that I have to finish that task. But after that, it'll be time to return to my duties.

Milo: Yeah, exactly. I think so. And next time you're going to be — I think you're going to be completely sober in a few years.

Candace: Sober from everywhere.

Milo: I'll never be that. No. Come on. The English can get sober. I'm British. That would be like saying go to a therapist. It's ridiculous. What we do instead is we bury it. We drink and we invade Ghana. No, there will never be a day when I don't — I'm getting better. I will say this. Adderall got me off cocaine. I continually take steps in good, positive, healthy directions. I found myself being irritated with the fact that a medication I was on was getting in the way of my prayer life, and I was like, oh my god, who am I? Who have I become? Just because I was stumbling over my words and I was like, this is annoying. Oh god, you pick the narcotics or the Blessed Mother, Milo. Who are you?

So I have confronted with those kinds of things now and normally don't disappoint myself. But you will pry a Pellegrino out of my cold dead hands, girl. Wine is the substance that our Lord has chosen to manifest in. Drinking is Catholic. Catholics drink. That's all there is to it. I have never trusted teetotal people. I regard anybody who doesn't drink with extreme suspicion and contempt, honestly — which is really everyone in America. Nobody drinks anymore.

I was very reassured to hear that you had a glass of wine under social pressure, which means that you are not one of those people.

Candace: I did have a glass of wine under social pressure. But now I probably would say no. It's just part of being a mom. I have to be up early.

Milo: Now you've got an excuse. But there are people who would have said no. And that's reassuring, because it means you're not one of the bad guys.

I'm not going to say that I have the perfect, clean, and pious life. I don't. But within very narrow limits, I do like a drink or whatever. And to some extent — this is classic sinner move about to happen here — it does stop me doing worse things. Having a couple of glasses of wine, going to sleep, instead of being up all night like I would have been before. Three a.m. is the witching hour for your libido. Instead, having drifted off nicely after a whiskey with a cat in my arm and a book on my lap — that for me is a way better way to end the day than spending six hours tossing and turning, wrestling with what I call the semen demon. I found that the most effective way to leave things behind was to make them ridiculous, so that it was like preposterous that I can even imagine myself doing it. I tried to make it into a joke, and now I kind of laugh when I hear it, so it sort of feels like it was somebody else. I turned everything into an absurdity. That is disordered, you know. That was helpful for me, because it's difficult to stay horny when you're laughing.

So I think I have maybe a prematurely geriatric life and routine from which I will emerge one day. But right now, while I'm staying on the straight and narrow, not falling off the wagon as far as the gay stuff goes, and continuing to put in a good day's work for our friend, and getting better with my spiritual life all the time — I mean, I learned Latin for goodness' sake. I got a tutor for three years and now I can translate the Gospels and I understand the liturgies. It is amazing. That is truly amazing. Drug addicts don't learn Latin in their spare time.

That kind of stuff is really important to me. I have the personality I have, gay or straight. I'm self-indulgent. But I have tried to use the self-indulgent time somewhat wisely. And I think when I come back, I'm going to be deadly.

Candace: Well, Milo, no one's ever doubted that you're brilliant. And so what you'll fill your time with — it's exhausting, you know. It's suffocating. I've always wanted to be more oblivious. I wanted to go through life just sort of enjoying the drift. But always been sort of hyper-aware, just meandering through life. I would love not to remember details. I would love not to notice things. I would love not to draw connections. I'd love it if I didn't know when people close to me were lying to me. And I always do, because I have this pattern-matching brain that notices everything they're doing. I'm like, why are you lying to me? Maybe there's a good reason, but it makes me sad every time.

Milo: And I would love to take all those dials down. You know, it's a great curse to be witty, brilliant, handsome, popular, and successful. There's a great line in a David Brooks book or something about how Disney punishes athletic kids, because it tells these ugly duckling stories to which they cannot possibly relate. It's the popular athletic kids at school who are the real victims, because they don't have any stories that speak to their lives. It's all about losers and also-rans. Where's the kids' book for the cheerleader? Where's the kids' book for the quarterback?

I like to say I've lived a life of extraordinary ease and privilege, but I've never allowed that to stand in my way. I know when I have conversations with people like you who are insightful and have integrity and gently in that lovely way remind me I've got lots left to do.

Candace: I'm in such mom mode. I'm always momming everyone.

Milo: No, but I need that, because I didn't have a nice mom. I had a cocaine addict. So I didn't have a mother. But you're brilliant, and I obviously — a lot of my political philosophy, or the beginning of my political philosophy, really began with reading you when you were on Breitbart. And I know you have a lot to contribute.

Candace: I feel like Lauryn Hill. I can't do a second album after this much pressure. But I do think your voice is missing. I think there are a lot of people that could benefit from it.

Milo: I will tell you this: a decade of imitators, and really nobody comes close. It's been very sad, very tragic to watch. You've blossomed remarkably and beautifully into somebody very formidable. And a couple of other people have. But other than that, it's quite a sorry field, isn't it?

Candace: It's starting to look like our architecture.

Milo: No, it's flimsy. The standard of discourse on the conservative side — not interesting at all. It's 20 IQ points lower even than it was in 2015. It's so basic. We were smart in 2015. We were funny. We were smart. And now you have like three clans, and one of them just says one thing all day, and one of them says this, and one of them says that. It's just intolerably dull. Not one of them has ever been to an art gallery. Not one of them has ever read a real book.

Candace: And once you have a platform and you're in that feedback loop and people are like, you're amazing, you're great — maybe people stop learning. They become less interested. I think that they've arrived at the conclusion.

Milo: And another thing I did is I wrote a lot of bad books for other people, which has contributed to the general collapse in standards, because I've been ghostwriting in those 10 years. And the kinds of people you're ghostwriting for, they're not intellectuals. So I think I've really — is it all my fault? Yeah. I made it dumb, fake, and gay.

Candace: Yeah. I think that is actually a perfect place to end it. It's all Milo's fault. He has made everything dumb. He has given America his gay, and this is the problem that we find ourselves in in American society. Everything is dumb, fake, and gay because of Milo Yiannopoulos. I'm so sorry. It could have been better.

Milo: I'm sorry, you guys. Sorry. I'm going to buy a castle in Hungary and wish you the best.

Candace: Milo, thank you so much for joining. We're definitely going to have you back.

Milo: Thank you, love.